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  1. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 12:53pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Do you have any general strategies for framing? I know MANY judo coaches advise against framing or stiff-arming, but sometimes I think that is because they are far too enamored with the gentle, empty-jacket esotericism of conceptual judo. Anyone who has ever sparred with a real judo or sambo athlete knows that it doesn't feel like that at all... Or usually doesn't. It's more like being stuck inside a very violent washing machine, and then somehow getting shot out onto your face.

    I see Jimmy Pedro and Rhadi Ferguson stiff-arming the opposite lapel of their opponent, making a square or rectangle configuration between tori and uke, thus preventing a linear attack.

    Thoughts?
    Never heard it called framing before, only heard "framing" in terms of BJJ/no gi grappling. The concept is not new, but I guess the name is.

    Framing does not necessarily involve stiff arming. Stiff arming is tactical, something done with specific purpose/reason in mind. Framing is basic kumi kata, really, and the normal sleeve and lapel grip is a form of framing. By "grip fighting", you are trying to have a superior "framing" position.

    Gotta run to work, more later.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 1:15pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    DVDs get expensive for sure. I only have Jimmy Pedro's, and I got it mostly to have something for my students to study. Most are not nerdy though, so any sort of study outside of class doesn't happen, other than competition videos.
    I've heard Ewan Beaton's videos are good, he covers gripping in the first one. Available through Toraki here. They are $30 each but also each is 2 hours long.
  3. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 1:26pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Grip/Posture Framing

    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Do you have any general strategies for framing? I know MANY judo coaches advise against framing or stiff-arming, but sometimes I think that is because they are far too enamored with the gentle, empty-jacket esotericism of conceptual judo. Anyone who has ever sparred with a real judo or sambo athlete knows that it doesn't feel like that at all... Or usually doesn't. It's more like being stuck inside a very violent washing machine, and then somehow getting shot out onto your face.

    I see Jimmy Pedro and Rhadi Ferguson stiff-arming the opposite lapel of their opponent, making a square or rectangle configuration between tori and uke, thus preventing a linear attack.

    Thoughts?
    OK, I gathered some thoughts...let me know what you think.

    1.) Framing and kumi kata (gripping forms) and "grip fighting" (hand fighting in wrestling?) are really the same thing. "Framing" of one sort of another is what you are generally trying to achieve, getting the best useable grip/posture combination you can on your opponent to be able to do what you want to do and to limit what your opponent can do.

    2.) Stiff arming does not necessarily equal framing. "Stiff arming", is a subset of the gripping/framing process, ranging from both elbows locked out (typical of beginners) in defense to specific and purposeful use in a sequence for defense, grip transition, elicit a reaction from opponent is part of kumi kata and grip fighting.

    3.) Jimmy and Rhadi competed under different judo rules/interpretations than we do now, so some caution is needed when applying what they did to judo now. For Sambo or BJJ, I assume it doesn't matter. I THINK that Rhadi updates his stuff for current rules.

    4.) The normal sleeve and lapel grip used in judo is a form of framing, especially when combined with the right or left natural posture (migi or hidari shizentai). Obviously, there are other combinations that can and do work to one degree or another depending on specific purpose and context.

    5.) To help in basic "framing", I use these teaching cues and drill students. When I get new students who have done judo before that are deficient in this, it is often very time consuming to correct.
    a. Elbows down, elbows point to the floor when gripping.
    b. Thumbs towards yourself, pink side of hand towards opponent
    c.
    Last edited by BKR; 2/11/2014 1:55pm at . Reason: Adding Stuff
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 1:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    I've heard Ewan Beaton's videos are good, he covers gripping in the first one. Available through Toraki here. They are $30 each but also each is 2 hours long.
    Cool, I'll check that out.

    I like discussing stuff anyway, helps me to think through what I teach/coach and get new ideas.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 1:45pm

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    It was terminology that Rhadi uses, and what it appears to be, in the example, is returning your opponent's lapel grip with an opposite lapel grip of your own. When Pedro does it, though, it looks like he is pushing the lapel into uke's armpit.

    Maybe we could explore it like this:

    Your opponent gets a lapel grip on you, and you are unfortunately unable to break that grip. What are two very specific sequences that you use to deal with his superior hand positioning?
  6. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 2:21pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    45 minute limit on editing kicked in so I cut and pasted the original with new additions.

    Ben


    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Do you have any general strategies for framing? I know MANY judo coaches advise against framing or stiff-arming, but sometimes I think that is because they are far too enamored with the gentle, empty-jacket esotericism of conceptual judo. Anyone who has ever sparred with a real judo or sambo athlete knows that it doesn't feel like that at all... Or usually doesn't. It's more like being stuck inside a very violent washing machine, and then somehow getting shot out onto your face.

    I see Jimmy Pedro and Rhadi Ferguson stiff-arming the opposite lapel of their opponent, making a square or rectangle configuration between tori and uke, thus preventing a linear attack.

    Thoughts?
    OK, I gathered some thoughts...let me know what you think.

    1.) Framing and kumi kata (gripping forms) and "grip fighting" (hand fighting in wrestling?) are really the same thing. "Framing" of one sort of another is what you are generally trying to achieve, getting the best useable grip/posture combination you can on your opponent to be able to do what you want to do and to limit what your opponent can do.

    2.) Stiff arming does not necessarily equal framing. "Stiff arming", is a subset of the gripping/framing process, ranging from both elbows locked out (typical of beginners) in defense to specific and purposeful use in a sequence for defense, grip transition, elicit a reaction from opponent is part of kumi kata and grip fighting.

    3.) Jimmy and Rhadi competed under different judo rules/interpretations than we do now, so some caution is needed when applying what they did to judo now. For Sambo or BJJ, I assume it doesn't matter. I THINK that Rhadi updates his stuff for current rules.

    4.) The normal sleeve and lapel grip used in judo is a form of framing, especially when combined with the right or left natural posture (migi or hidari shizentai). Obviously, there are other combinations that can and do work to one degree or another depending on specific purpose and context.

    5.) To help in basic "framing", I use these teaching cues and drill students. When I get new students who have done judo before that are deficient in this, it is often very time consuming to correct.
    a. Elbows down, elbows point to the floor when gripping.
    b. Thumbs towards yourself, pink side of hand towards opponent
    c. Lapel hand should be on uke lapel at least level with your own shoulder.
    d. Grip sleeve between elbow and sleeve opening. For sleeve control, grip closer to end of sleeve.
    e. Right or left foot forward (lefty have left forward, righty have right forward.
    f. Strong grip, loose shoulders

    6.) The "square" configuration...well, the foot forward posture (migi or hidari shizentai) and gripping (I've heard it called "half front posture", or han mi) has and is designed to have that effect. If you as attacker are going to apply force linearly along the weaker direction of your opponents posture (perpendicular to the line between his insteps), you have to maneuver yourself and him into the proper configuration first, whereas in a "square posture" you don't or it's minimal.

    In fact, a "square" posture, or at least what I call a square posture, would be shizenhontai, or fundamental natural posture with both feet parallel to the shoulders. That puts you in direct danger of linear attack with no adjustment needed by your opponent. You opponent is already "T-ed up" so to speak.

    7.) Regarding the "esoteric" "empty jacket" stuff. That sort of thing does exist, and isn't esoteric. I've felt it myself. It's not particularly practical for young people in grappling to develop (not saying not possible, just not usual) that focus on competition.

    I do think that being overly tense is not good, as it hampers flexible movement and reaction. Proper gripping/posture relationships "framing" if you will, relieve you of the need to be stiff and tense for defense. Often higher level judoka will feel stiff and heavy, but that is more a result of their being centered, with good posture and gripping relationships.
    Last edited by BKR; 2/11/2014 2:39pm at . Reason: more additions
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 2:31pm

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    I've felt the empty-jacket thing, too. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying that it isn't necessarily the fastest way from point A to point B, competitively speaking.

    I don't view the perfect alternative as being stiff, or muscling your opponent. I just often find that guys who have trained to do the gentle, conceptual judo method are often easy for me to pick apart, especially if they have never sparred hard.
  8. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 2:58pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    It was terminology that Rhadi uses, and what it appears to be, in the example, is returning your opponent's lapel grip with an opposite lapel grip of your own. When Pedro does it, though, it looks like he is pushing the lapel into uke's armpit.

    Maybe we could explore it like this:

    Your opponent gets a lapel grip on you, and you are unfortunately unable to break that grip. What are two very specific sequences that you use to deal with his superior hand positioning?
    OK, I was hoping you would get specific, otherwise, where to start other than conceptual/basic?

    Does the opponent have two hands on me or one, and assume I'm a righty, is he a left or a righty ? And which hand does he have on me ?
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 3:03pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    I've felt the empty-jacket thing, too. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying that it isn't necessarily the fastest way from point A to point B, competitively speaking.

    I don't view the perfect alternative as being stiff, or muscling your opponent. I just often find that guys who have trained to do the gentle, conceptual judo method are often easy for me to pick apart, especially if they have never sparred hard.
    LOL, I wrote basically the same thing as your first paragraph.

    If they have never sparred hard, then they haven't tested their stuff, so obviously they will fail. I knew a national level competitor who did that, although he did randori hard. He would get picked apart tactically and at times technically at national level, and his attitude about being soft and using solely "ju" was misplaced. He got as far as he because of incredible physique and stature, ironically, although he did do some pretty nice Judo for sure.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 3:34pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    OK, I was hoping you would get specific, otherwise, where to start other than conceptual/basic?

    Does the opponent have two hands on me or one, and assume I'm a righty, is he a left or a righty ? And which hand does he have on me ?
    Ok, my bad.

    Let's say he's a right-handed player, and he has procured a lapel grip with his right hand. His left still has not captured a sleeve.

    Scenario 1: I am right-handed

    Scenario 2: I am left-handed

    Hope that helps.
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