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  1. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2014 6:36pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Single Beat?

    I read Miyamoto Musashi's The Book of Five Rings, and I think it had a lot of good advice for any combat sport/martial art. I can't figure out something though, so if anyone has any ideas I'd like to hear them.

    In the book, he talks about how you should always think about attacking your opponent, and that some people only think of defense. He talks about "Striking with a single beat", meaning to strike your opponent before he has any Idea of whether to attack, parry, run away etc. Basically get him at the orient phase, before he can decide on what to do.

    I can see how that aligns itself nicely to Boyd's O.O.D.A. loop, where, since you are the first attacker, you are forcing your opponent to adapt to you, so his cycle of thinking is going to be slower than yours, since you are just acting your cycle out without having to adapt to what your opponent is doing, while your opponent has to go through the process of thinking "He's striking at my head! Do I block? Do I move?" etc.

    Later on in the book, Musashi talks about how you should wait for your opponent to make a move before executing your move. Example: You see that your opponent wants to strike at your head, so you strike at his body since it's open.

    This seems to contradict his earlier "Single Beat" striking method.

    In your MA of choice, do you find "Striking with a single Beat" whether that means attacking first in Muay Thai or shooting in first in wrestling etc. more effective for you, or do you find that waiting to find out what your opponent is trying to do, and then make your move as a counter, works better?
  2. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2014 6:41pm


     Style: Kendo

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bear in mind that the bulk of that book only makes sense if you have the background for it, ie you are a senior student of niten ichi ryu.

    Having said that, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I highly doubt Musashi would advocate only doing one thing or the other, so to say that there's a contradiction in his providing different methods is misunderstanding his intent, I would expect.
  3. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2014 6:42pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    Later on in the book, Musashi talks about how you should wait for your opponent to make a move before executing your move. Example: You see that your opponent wants to strike at your head, so you strike at his body since it's open.

    This seems to contradict his earlier "Single Beat" striking method.
    A single beat doesn't necessarily mean attacking first, it means attacking at the same time. You try to hit me, and I hit you instead of blocking, interrupting your attack, as opposed to defending then counterattacking.
    Last edited by Permalost; 2/03/2014 6:45pm at .
  4. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2014 7:04pm


     Style: Kendo

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are 3 fundamental timings, hit him as he prepares ie while he is thinking about it, hit him while he initiates, hit him after he has hit. The last one always involves a block or parry.
  5. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2014 7:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    I read Miyamoto Musashi's The Book of Five Rings, and I think it had a lot of good advice for any combat sport/martial art. I can't figure out something though, so if anyone has any ideas I'd like to hear them.

    In the book, he talks about how you should always think about attacking your opponent, and that some people only think of defense. He talks about "Striking with a single beat", meaning to strike your opponent before he has any Idea of whether to attack, parry, run away etc. Basically get him at the orient phase, before he can decide on what to do.

    I can see how that aligns itself nicely to Boyd's O.O.D.A. loop, where, since you are the first attacker, you are forcing your opponent to adapt to you, so his cycle of thinking is going to be slower than yours, since you are just acting your cycle out without having to adapt to what your opponent is doing, while your opponent has to go through the process of thinking "He's striking at my head! Do I block? Do I move?" etc.

    Later on in the book, Musashi talks about how you should wait for your opponent to make a move before executing your move. Example: You see that your opponent wants to strike at your head, so you strike at his body since it's open.

    This seems to contradict his earlier "Single Beat" striking method.

    In your MA of choice, do you find "Striking with a single Beat" whether that means attacking first in Muay Thai or shooting in first in wrestling etc. more effective for you, or do you find that waiting to find out what your opponent is trying to do, and then make your move as a counter, works better?
    You have to stay flexible in your approach. What happens depends on circumstances and context.

    I have only read the Five Rings in English, so do not know if Mushashi addresses the different types of initiative: sen, sen no sen, and go no sen. I've also seen sen sen no sen, but it's been awhile.

    Then there is this to consider:

    John 8:11
    King James Version
    11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

    That phrase applies to the guy who just can't be bothered to get started on anything.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2014 7:51pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I have only read the Five Rings in English, so do not know if Mushashi addresses the different types of initiative: sen, sen no sen, and go no sen. I've also seen sen sen no sen, but it's been awhile.
    My translation does discuss the three timings, in the Fire Book. I've come across the same ideas in the context of Aikido and Karate. I think its in all striking or weapon based Japanese MA, at least (I don't know about Judo).

    Since a punch is a punch is a punch, I wouldn't be surprised to find similar teachings in other striking or weapon based arts besides the Japanese.
  7. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2014 8:38pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Since a punch is a punch is a punch, I wouldn't be surprised to find similar teachings in other striking or weapon based arts besides the Japanese.
    I've read about before, during and after timings in a Medieval fechtbuch.
  8. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2014 9:12pm

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     Style: (Hung Ga+BJJ+MT+JKD) ^ Qi

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    Bear in mind that the bulk of that book only makes sense if you have the background for it, ie you are a senior student of niten ichi ryu.
    ^ this.

    Some of Five Rings applies specifically to this two sword style of fighting, allowing a swordsman to both block and attack at the same time.

    But, as Musashi grew older, he was very influenced by Zen and when he finally retired and wrote, it was influenced by both his famously effective sword style as well as his more spiritual meditations later on.

    A word of caution, there are both good and bad translations or "interpretations" of Five Rings out there. Make sure you aren't using a version considered "off", I think there are threads on BS somewhere discussing this...maybe Neil knows what I mean.
  9. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2014 9:59pm


     Style: Kendo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Victor Harris translation is the standard, beware the one by "Hanshi" Steve Kaufman. However to my knowledge it has never been translated by someone with both thorough knowledge of the Japanese of the period and thorough knowledge of NIR. I read it about 10 years into my kendo career and frankly didn't make much sense of it, apparently if you practice NIR you can get a lot more out of it.
  10. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/04/2014 12:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    My translation does discuss the three timings, in the Fire Book. I've come across the same ideas in the context of Aikido and Karate. I think its in all striking or weapon based Japanese MA, at least (I don't know about Judo).

    Since a punch is a punch is a punch, I wouldn't be surprised to find similar teachings in other striking or weapon based arts besides the Japanese.
    It's been 20 years since I read Five Rings, LOL.

    My remarks were general in nature and could apply to anything. Go no sen for example is basically counterattack, in Judo, would be a counter throw (for example) in reaction to an attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I've read about before, during and after timings in a Medieval fechtbuch.
    I imagine the concept(s) are fundamental to any sort of h2h/weapon in hand fighting, regardless of culture.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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