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  1. #41

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    I don't buy this at all. This is combat sports. You are learning how to fight, and then practicing fighting. Getting injured is part of the learning process. It's one thing if someone with greater skill is just beating on a weaker partner or suddenly starts going harder than is situationally appropriate, but during srs bsns sparring with two reasonably equally matched people, injuries are going to happen every once and awhile. If I get my nose broken, it's my fault. I didn't block the punch. That was my job. I'm not going to expect my sparring partner to pay to get it fixed. He was doing his job by protecting himself and providing me with a challenge.
    Are you going to be as happy and forgiving if you injure yourself because your partner decides to do a judo throw from the clinch or a knee bar during your MT sparring? The issue here is whether full power punches to the face are an accepted and agreed part of their training. If they are he should suck it up and give back as good as he gets. If not, the instructor should be stepping in to correct things.

  2. #42
    ghost55's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's fair. I said this because some higher level aikido techniques are set up with punches,, and if you **** up you can get punched in the face.

  3. #43

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Aikido is, for the most part, a cooperative martial art. That can be a little misleading, but in reality it really is - regardless of how hard you train. Of course, uke can increase resistance, speed, strength of attack, but generally unless you are doing randori or jiyuwaza, its more or less the equivalent of prearranged 'one step' sparring like you see in karate.

    That being said, there's an understanding of responsibility between the attacker and the guy executing technique. Aikido is one of the most dangerous martial arts because of the attackers willingness to leave himself vulnerable while his partner works the technique, and the emphasis combining momentum with joint manipulation. In that context, I can see where a 'out of place' punch to the face can be perceived as poor manners. We will do 'walking pace' randori for new students - if everyone is going 40% and one guy goes balls-out, he's kind of a dick. I am all about hard training - hell I had a black eye, broken toe, and two jammed fingers after my nidan testing randori - but if someone is just way out of context, surprise blasting playas in the face - thats just dumb and have no training value for the guy punching, and little training value for the person getting face punched.

    Some schools really ignore atemi. I train in two styles of aikido, and one of them has an atemi for over half their kihon waza. The other style school doesn't require that much atemi, but you'll see close to that being executed voluntarily.

    We do a lot of basic techniques where nage/shi'te initiates with an atemi to get their uke off balance and maybe manipulate a blocking hand/arm.

    I travel about 185 days a year for work. When I travel I visit dojo, and I train in several JMAs. Between judo, jujitsu, aikido, iaido, and karate, I would say the dojo-crossover with aikido is the most frustrating. Because of the above-described "cooperative" nature, training can lead to uke being conditioned to certain styles of techniques. That can be bad training for the uke, but worse for the nage. This disconnect of training emphasis and values frustrates the visitor/new-join, and the incumbent dojo. Also, I currently can't think of a higher percentage of arrogance in a martial art more so than I experience in aikido. My organization is one of the best I've seen, but we have some so-so dojo. Sometimes this arrogance is passive-aggressive, but its there far more than it should be (I generally have positive experiences though). Honestly, the most fun I have when visiting dojo have been Yoshinkan ones. Maybe I'm biased, but they train like I like to, and every single one we've gone out drinking afterward (drunken parking lot aikido not an uncommon occurrence).

    TL;DR
    Too many people think what they've done at their dojo is the right way things are done. This is less true in aikido than most other martial arts - its one of the most diverse JMAs.

    Aikido is one of the most frustrating martial arts to cross train styles in unless you have very, very solid fundamentals.

    Some people use way more atemi than others, and some places don't, in the wild wild world of aikido.

    I prefer robust, hard, training...but aikido's nature lends itself of cooperative training, and its pretty gay to take advantage of that by popping people in the face. But.....

    ....you should always be ready to get popped in the face. When I get complacent and get face-punched, I am usually ashamed....but that shouldn't be the case for a newbie.

    Don't punch newbies in the face unless they have an understanding it could happen - that's like slapping a random passerby in a bar.
    Last edited by daishi; 3/17/2014 8:12am at .

  4. #44

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dork Angel View Post
    Are you going to be as happy and forgiving if you injure yourself because your partner decides to do a judo throw from the clinch or a knee bar during your MT sparring? The issue here is whether full power punches to the face are an accepted and agreed part of their training. If they are he should suck it up and give back as good as he gets. If not, the instructor should be stepping in to correct things.
    Yeah, a full-power punch to the face is almost never appropriate if everyone else is going half-speed. I'll occasionally do a 'readiness check' of junior students by attack much harder than everyone else is, but I have enough control where I've never hit someone doing that.

  5. #45
    solves problems with violence supporting member
    Ming Loyalist's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daishi View Post
    TL;DR
    dude. your "TL;DR" was too long to read!
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    dude. your "TL;DR" was too long to read!
    truth

  7. #47

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    sorry to disappoint you Anastasia but atemi is an oft left out part of aikido and is an important component of it. However, in this type of free-play the tori should have been able to control the atemi so as not to make contact.

  8. #48

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    an aikido "Grand Master", oh dear, never mind. Self titled no doubt. I have been an aikido student for 37 years and a teacher for 30 and I have never come across an aikido "Grand Master" in all the countries that I have trained and taught in.

  9. #49

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Roisin View Post
    sorry to disappoint you Anastasia but atemi is an oft left out part of aikido and is an important component of it. However, in this type of free-play the tori should have been able to control the atemi so as not to make contact.
    You are a God of Necro-thread- resurrection.

    I bow to you.

  10. #50
    Cake of Doom's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Roisin View Post
    ...control the atemi so as not to make contact.
    If there is no intention to strike, how can it even be called atemi?

    #Aikidoproblems

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