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  1. Wing-Kwan-Fu is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 5:52pm


     Style: Standup, Ground-fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    So basically you know **** all about grip fighting, but you've decided these particular changes to grip fighting are a Big Deal for some reason.
    Did I say that? I know close to ****-all about how people abuse the rules of Judo, though, which is what I was trying to communicate.

    But you, you claimed that one hand is stronger than two at breaking grips...or maybe you meant that training any method of breaking grips is exactly equal to training any other, so you should use the method that takes up the fewest hands? I was trying to understand your broken comment, and you refuse to either explain or retract it. All I'm getting from you is "do you evn ttrain lol" and "u no fuk all".
    Last edited by Wing-Kwan-Fu; 2/06/2014 6:03pm at .
  2. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 7:19pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    I agree...their efficiency in Judo is unaffected. However, it is a fact that changing the rules will, over time, change training habits and attitudes, which will potentially change their effectiveness in less-specialized fights.

    This is sort of a central idea of Bullshido, I think. A realistic competition rule set (eg, vale tudo; ancient gladiatorial blood-sports; total war waged with primitive weapons) preserves or improves a martial art, while unrealistic rule sets (no-contact karate; competitive push-hands; etc) progressively degrade any unwary martial art until it must be reclassified as a culturally-significant historical dance art.

    Note: "realistic" differs from "specialized". Specialized formats hone specialized skills. They are necessary. But to be realistic, a rule set must reward techniques that work even in the least specialized rule set, which of course would be a world-wide free-for-all apocalypse of seven billion suddenly enraged human beings fighting with tooth, nail, and all manner of unethically messy weapons, scorching every square inch of a planet driven mysteriously but utterly and irrevocably mad by magics most profane. A rule set can hardly be unspecialized in this sense without being realistic, but can definitely be realistic but not unspecialized (BJJ and Judo still fit in the latter category).

    So, what makes you think that changing competition rules don't affect the way people "apply the principles of Judo"? Heck, as far as I'm concerned, BJJ is an application of "the principles of Judo", and it's very different from modern Judo primarily, I would argue, because of the different rule sets (considering "the rules" as both the official competition rule set and the sparring "house rules" made either by the gym or individual training partners, which is obviously affected, on average, by the official rules of whatever competitions the school cares about). I think it's great that both interpretations of the same principles currently exist, alongside other interpretations with useful features, and I think it would be a pity for either to degrade to the point that they aren't a good choice to recommend to noobs on Bullshido. I think this degradation is almost inevitable for any martial art in the long run, but any rule change has the potential to accelerate the process. I'm not saying these will, necessarily, since I know little about competition Judo, and also I think some of them sound like improvements, and maybe even the negative-Judo restrictions will end up being good for the sport, but it is super-duper valid and totally in line with the highest ideals of this site to be concerned about this.

    Lastly, do you really think grip righting "doesn't really matter"?
    Grip fighting is an application, not a principle. And if you are going to quote me, put in a complete quote in context, please.

    Matters for what? Modern competition judo ? Hell yes..."realistic fighting", much less so, if at all, at least in the case of "two on one" grip breaks rules changes.

    Yes, rule changes affect how judo is trained, for the most part. A lot of judo today is competition oriented, so the rules of competition affect training to some degree. However, I think focusing on a particular rule or rules changes such as two handed vs one handed grip cutting might be a bit narrow. Judo has a lot to offer outside of the narrow confines of particular competition ruleset(s).

    One of the principle...practices espoused here at Bullshido is "aliveness". Judo and BJJ have that, within their focus (stand up and ground grappling) have that in spades. Both allow the full speed application of techniques and movements both in practice and competition. The principles learned are useful for self defense/fighting, as well as conditioning, mental attitude, toughness, (especially competition), are useful in "real life" as well.

    So, "alive" training is the most important thing, first of all.

    Next is "cross training", depending on how "realistic" one wants one's skills to be in what context.

    For example, I have to handcuff people as part of my job. I never trained in handcuffing people in my 30+ years of Judo training. So I got specialized training in cuffing methods. My judo training was an excellent background for that and the process of taking people to the ground and controlling them. I also know how to perform under highly adrenalized conditions (from judo competition), and have no qualms about physically "handling" people against their will.

    So, sure, it's valid to be concerned about rules changes and their effect, in general, on the specifics of "realism" of a given martial art. Looking at the big picture, though, the primary "deficiency" of Judo is it's lack of striking integrated with the superb grappling it offers, despite the ruleset and changes over the last 100+ years.

    That can be cured by cross training if one is so inclined.
    Last edited by BKR; 2/06/2014 7:29pm at .
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 9:48pm


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Grip fighting is one of the most artificial things about modern judo competition. The idea that in any kind of real fight you'd spend half your time trying to impose a dominant grip while denying your opponent a grip, all so you can execute your ideal throw, is kind of ridiculous. The trend in the rules these days for judo is to try to give reasonable leeway to let the players establish their grips, but if they are refusing to engage by repeatedly denying the other player's grip, it's a penalty. Two-handed breaks are disallowed for much the same reason.

    When we talk about "negative" judo, we are talking about this kind of thing - fighting that is about denying your opponent's attacks rather than creating your own opportunities.
  4. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 11:54pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can definitely get behind the mentality of a positive training culture where people are prepared to "lose" in order to better themselves and their partners. However, I'm still a little confused about how this applies to competition.

    Pulling guard in BJJ is also unrealistic, but this is a sport and realism is often ill-defined. On the contrary, shouldn't something as idiosyncratic as grip-fighting be welcomed in sport grappling?

    Maybe that's where the divergence lies. In my view, sport grappling is an exercise in how sophisticated my grappling is; if someone can subdue me with their grips, then I'm embarrassed and frustrated and I won't be satisfied unless I can navigate the problem with better grappling. Is that so weird? Is it incompatible with judo?
    Last edited by DARPAChief; 2/06/2014 11:59pm at .
  5. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/07/2014 12:13am


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What happens in judo if you don't limit the grip-fighting is that it goes on forever. You can penalize it a few different ways though, I have the option of saying the guy was stalling or refusing grip or stiff-arming depending on how I see it. Any way you slice it, the prevailing view is that you should be attacking not defending.
  6. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2014 2:59am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The way I'm reading that, it sounds like grip-fighting is like a judo kryptonite that sabotages competition, which suggests that the aim of a judo competition is to chase the dragon that is judo, not to grapple per se. Is that accurate?
    Last edited by DARPAChief; 2/07/2014 3:04am at .
  7. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/07/2014 11:17am

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not against grip fighting at all, although I do realize that it is sport-specific. I find that a lot of judoka have a less-bumpy transition to striking arts than pure newaza arts, like BJJ, if they were originally taught grip fighting in a real, aggressive manner. Just speaking from personal experience.

    There are 1000 things about sport sambo that aren't necessarily street applicable, but it doesn't make me love sambo any less. Furthermore, though, anyone who thinks they can take a high-level sambo practitioner in a street fight because they've trained casually for a few years in "real" arts like MT, MMA, or BJJ is fucking mistaken. You're gonna get total-victoried on the top of your skull.
  8. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/07/2014 4:13pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    Grip fighting is one of the most artificial things about modern judo competition. The idea that in any kind of real fight you'd spend half your time trying to impose a dominant grip while denying your opponent a grip, all so you can execute your ideal throw, is kind of ridiculous. The trend in the rules these days for judo is to try to give reasonable leeway to let the players establish their grips, but if they are refusing to engage by repeatedly denying the other player's grip, it's a penalty. Two-handed breaks are disallowed for much the same reason.

    When we talk about "negative" judo, we are talking about this kind of thing - fighting that is about denying your opponent's attacks rather than creating your own opportunities.
    Abso-fucking-lutely, Neil, well said !
    Last edited by BKR; 2/07/2014 4:19pm at .
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/07/2014 4:17pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    The way I'm reading that, it sounds like grip-fighting is like a judo kryptonite that sabotages competition, which suggests that the aim of a judo competition is to chase the dragon that is judo, not to grapple per se. Is that accurate?
    Judo is grappling therefore when one is doing judo one is grappling.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/07/2014 4:20pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    I'm not against grip fighting at all, although I do realize that it is sport-specific. I find that a lot of judoka have a less-bumpy transition to striking arts than pure newaza arts, like BJJ, if they were originally taught grip fighting in a real, aggressive manner. Just speaking from personal experience.

    There are 1000 things about sport sambo that aren't necessarily street applicable, but it doesn't make me love sambo any less. Furthermore, though, anyone who thinks they can take a high-level sambo practitioner in a street fight because they've trained casually for a few years in "real" arts like MT, MMA, or BJJ is fucking mistaken. You're gonna get total-victoried on the top of your skull.
    If I'm not mistaken, kwan-fu was just twisting on the old sport vs street thing.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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