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  1. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2014 1:28pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    Even before the rule changes you didn't see a ton of wrestling-style singles and doubles, at least not locally to me. You were more likely to see grabbing the leg as an assist or a follow-on attack. Not sure how I would deal with a good wrestler's shoot. I was able to easily stuff the few I was ever attacked with but they weren't that good.
    There has/had been a prejudice against "leg grabbing" as "not proper judo" for decades, in the US at least. Leg grabs were viewed as "wrestling" techniques, to be replied upon only due to a lack of "higher skill",usually by visiting wrestlers.

    There is some truth to that belief, in that it's easier to face someone and grab at their legs than to turn your back and attempt a throw. Less chance of being countered for sure. In any case, historical background...

    The leg grabbing ban came about due to their use at high level competition as a tactic for stalling (offensive and/or defensive), to escape being outgripped, etc. This resulted in judo that didn't really show the best of Judo (the IJF wants exciting action, big throws, blah blah blah, not tactical matches decided by small scores/penalties.)

    I think you know this already, however, non-judoka here may not be aware of that.

    I had to teach myself to counter wrestling attacks, because they became common. As you say, though, for the most part I rarely had to deal with even decent college level wrestlers even at nationals, although they certainly did exist even in the dim past.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2014 1:33pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    I'm not a fan of banning the grip breaks, unorthodox grips, leg grabs, or pushing someone down. These seem like legitimate techniques to me, and not "negative judo" in the slightest, at least in the local tourneys I've done. It's also a personal annoyance: I like using a hand to help my kouchigari, I like foiling an end-of-sleeve grip with a knee shuck, and pushing someone down with a high-collar grip sounds to me a great option from that position.

    The other stuff I can understand or get behind.
    Only two on one grip breaks are "banned". The unorthodox grips are OK if you attack quickly. Leg grabs, well, BANNED !

    They are legitimate techniques, but were used heavily at high level competition as stalling tactics (negative judo) in various ways/fashions. Which trickled down to even local level tournaments, which should be about development, not winning at all costs.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2014 1:47pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    I was talking about the things they did ban. I like doing two-handed and knee grip breaks, and have several times shown people those specific techniques. Peeps be like, "neat!"



    I'm not sure I get what you mean by "progressive" and "regressive" rule changes. The ippon change seems regressive, since it goes back to a simpler (better, most here would I assume agree) state, whereas the new restrictions are "progressive" in that they are new, although they might make the sport worse. Are you referring to negative opinions posted here?

    I also don't get any of your zen attitudes about the ruleset defining the sport. I mean yeah, it does. But you should feel restricted by BJJ: disallowing punches makes BJJ competition less realistic, if not less useful as a training aid. That's why top BJJ players (some, at least) say what I said before: the top level of BJJ is its application to MMA.

    From this point of view, changes to the ruleset are bad if they breed worse fighters, even if they couldn't, by definition, reduce the efficacy of judoka in Judo.

    So if Judo changes, sure, that's the new sport now; within Judo, 50% of the fighters still win their matches at every comp, so it's easy to hand-wave away these complaints. But if in 20 years judoka are not very good at pajama wrestling compared to those who are allowed freedom in grip fighting, that will be evidence of degradation to the art's practicality in an objective way.


    Judo and BJJ are specialized into certain areas. BJJ, being largely derived (or at least originally) from Judo, is even more specialized than it's parent art.

    Judo NEVER had striking in it's competition format. Even the primary parent koyru jujutusu arts (Kito Ryu and Tenjin Shin'yo ryu from which Judo was derived were not primarily striking arts, certainly not in the sense of modern boxing, muy thai, et al.

    Efficiency of judoka in judo is not based on the rules under which competition occurs, it's based on how well they do Judo and apply the principles of Judo. Grip fighting or not doesn't really matter.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. Wing-Kwan-Fu is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 12:26pm


     Style: Standup, Ground-fighting

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    [/B]Efficiency of judoka in judo is not based on the rules under which competition occurs, it's based on how well they do Judo and apply the principles of Judo. Grip fighting or not doesn't really matter.
    I agree...their efficiency in Judo is unaffected. However, it is a fact that changing the rules will, over time, change training habits and attitudes, which will potentially change their effectiveness in less-specialized fights.

    This is sort of a central idea of Bullshido, I think. A realistic competition rule set (eg, vale tudo; ancient gladiatorial blood-sports; total war waged with primitive weapons) preserves or improves a martial art, while unrealistic rule sets (no-contact karate; competitive push-hands; etc) progressively degrade any unwary martial art until it must be reclassified as a culturally-significant historical dance art.

    Note: "realistic" differs from "specialized". Specialized formats hone specialized skills. They are necessary. But to be realistic, a rule set must reward techniques that work even in the least specialized rule set, which of course would be a world-wide free-for-all apocalypse of seven billion suddenly enraged human beings fighting with tooth, nail, and all manner of unethically messy weapons, scorching every square inch of a planet driven mysteriously but utterly and irrevocably mad by magics most profane. A rule set can hardly be unspecialized in this sense without being realistic, but can definitely be realistic but not unspecialized (BJJ and Judo still fit in the latter category).

    So, what makes you think that changing competition rules don't affect the way people "apply the principles of Judo"? Heck, as far as I'm concerned, BJJ is an application of "the principles of Judo", and it's very different from modern Judo primarily, I would argue, because of the different rule sets (considering "the rules" as both the official competition rule set and the sparring "house rules" made either by the gym or individual training partners, which is obviously affected, on average, by the official rules of whatever competitions the school cares about). I think it's great that both interpretations of the same principles currently exist, alongside other interpretations with useful features, and I think it would be a pity for either to degrade to the point that they aren't a good choice to recommend to noobs on Bullshido. I think this degradation is almost inevitable for any martial art in the long run, but any rule change has the potential to accelerate the process. I'm not saying these will, necessarily, since I know little about competition Judo, and also I think some of them sound like improvements, and maybe even the negative-Judo restrictions will end up being good for the sport, but it is super-duper valid and totally in line with the highest ideals of this site to be concerned about this.

    Lastly, do you really think grip righting "doesn't really matter"?
    Last edited by Wing-Kwan-Fu; 2/06/2014 12:31pm at .
  5. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 12:50pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You think a guy who can break grips with one hand is less capable in a no-rules fight than one who needs two?
  6. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 2:08pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    You think a guy who can break grips with one hand is less capable in a no-rules fight than one who needs two?
    He'll less often be able to break them, which is the intent of the rule.
  7. Wing-Kwan-Fu is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 4:50pm


     Style: Standup, Ground-fighting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    You think a guy who can break grips with one hand is less capable in a no-rules fight than one who needs two?
    I'm assuming you're joking, but, carry your reasoning to its logical conclusion:

    Given that a player able to break grips using only his formidable powers of telekinesis will be more capable than a player who needs one or more hands, we have no choice, as responsible promoters of aliveness in the martial arts, but to ban the breaking of grips using anything other than telekinesis.
  8. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 5:21pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do you even train?

    I ask, because all the people I know who do train - when their new options for breaking grips - more or less went "hmmm, yeah that is actually reasonable enough". They have also known about these changes for probably half a year now.

    Then I go on-line and there are these people bitching like grip-fighting has been eliminated (it hasn't) or that this is some huge change (it isn't, you're probably confusing the previous rule changes which were much bigger), or that this is something sudden and new, which of course it isn't.
    Last edited by CrackFox; 2/06/2014 5:27pm at .
  9. Wing-Kwan-Fu is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 5:32pm


     Style: Standup, Ground-fighting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Do you even train?
    BJJ.

    So, I'm not familiar with patterns of stalling and "negative judo" in competition. Did your friends approve of the rule change because the newly banned techniques are misused in competition, or because they think they are misused in competition and also bad techniques that shouldn't be learned?

    If the answer is, "Wing-Kwan-Fu you're an idiot, this is necessary to fix Judo competition, watch a single God-damned competition before you run your mouth about them, this change is worth the risk of slightly fewer people knowing these occasionally useful techniques", then OK.

    But your comment before, when you said that someone who only breaks grips one-handed would have the advantage over someone who knew and used both types of breaks, didn't seem to jibe with my observation about the usefulness of two-handed breaks against people with strong hands.

    I'm interested in "rule-creep" in martial arts, but yeah, I'm pretty ignorant about Judo.
    Last edited by Wing-Kwan-Fu; 2/06/2014 5:43pm at .
  10. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 5:36pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So basically you know **** all about grip fighting, but you've decided these particular changes to grip fighting are a Big Deal for some reason.
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