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  1. blackmonk is online now
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2014 1:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think most of the negative reactions stem from the perception that the rule changes are working regressively, rather than progressively. This comes from the fact that many people were exposed to judo under a different ruleset, so the dichotomy is very real and fresh-in-the-mind. Greco, for instance, has changed in rules and clothing over time, but it has remain largely unchanged for the majority of people who still practice it, other than a few small things.

    I was grumpy about the rule changes last year, but that's because I felt like my options were being further limited. Some of that is selfish, of course, as I am not a good player from traditional grips, and I use leg grabs all the time.

    When I really think about it, though, rules and clothes are what make the style, so if I feel restricted by judo, then I should feel restricted by greco because it doesn't allow leg grabs, or BJJ because I can't punch the person in the face.
  2. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2014 2:59pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    I think most of the negative reactions stem from the perception that the rule changes are working regressively, rather than progressively. This comes from the fact that many people were exposed to judo under a different ruleset, so the dichotomy is very real and fresh-in-the-mind. Greco, for instance, has changed in rules and clothing over time, but it has remain largely unchanged for the majority of people who still practice it, other than a few small things.

    I was grumpy about the rule changes last year, but that's because I felt like my options were being further limited. Some of that is selfish, of course, as I am not a good player from traditional grips, and I use leg grabs all the time.

    When I really think about it, though, rules and clothes are what make the style, so if I feel restricted by judo, then I should feel restricted by greco because it doesn't allow leg grabs, or BJJ because I can't punch the person in the face.
    Yeah, like if I went to a BJJ tourny and complained that I couldn't win by throwing a guy for ippon. Or a Sambo match and bitched about getting straight leg locked. And those tight jackets, dammit, that there's cheatin'.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. Krijgsman is online now

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2014 7:09pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree that the rule set essentially defines the style. On the other hand, the few times my Judo club has gone "sambo rules" or "jiu jitsu rules" just for fun, I have felt like a woefully under-prepared grappler in the face of leg attacks. And knowing that, say, 10 years go this would have been LESS of the case is frustrating. But I am glad for the stricter ippon and longer groundwork rules.
  4. Nickosaurus is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2014 5:10am


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I realise that the IJF is only concerned with Judo (and Keeping it in the Olympics) but how it fits in with other forms of grappling is important to a lot of participants. The sight of a cross training Judoka repeatedly getting hit with leg attacks will probably become more common.

    The only change here that effects me is "Pushing down" but its probably good they restricted that as the lack of leg attacks took away a lot of options for smaller players vs. larger players.
  5. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/01/2014 11:50am


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Even before the rule changes you didn't see a ton of wrestling-style singles and doubles, at least not locally to me. You were more likely to see grabbing the leg as an assist or a follow-on attack. Not sure how I would deal with a good wrestler's shoot. I was able to easily stuff the few I was ever attacked with but they weren't that good.
  6. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/01/2014 12:59pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not a fan of banning the grip breaks, unorthodox grips, leg grabs, or pushing someone down. These seem like legitimate techniques to me, and not "negative judo" in the slightest, at least in the local tourneys I've done. It's also a personal annoyance: I like using a hand to help my kouchigari, I like foiling an end-of-sleeve grip with a knee shuck, and pushing someone down with a high-collar grip sounds to me a great option from that position.

    The other stuff I can understand or get behind.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  7. Wing-Kwan-Fu is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2014 9:55pm


     Style: Standup, Ground-fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    It's not illegal to break a grip, you just can't use two hands to do it anymore. Lots of ways to strip grips.
    I was talking about the things they did ban. I like doing two-handed and knee grip breaks, and have several times shown people those specific techniques. Peeps be like, "neat!"

    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    I think most of the negative reactions stem from the perception that the rule changes are working regressively, rather than progressively. This comes from the fact that many people were exposed to judo under a different ruleset, so the dichotomy is very real and fresh-in-the-mind. Greco, for instance, has changed in rules and clothing over time, but it has remain largely unchanged for the majority of people who still practice it, other than a few small things.

    I was grumpy about the rule changes last year, but that's because I felt like my options were being further limited. Some of that is selfish, of course, as I am not a good player from traditional grips, and I use leg grabs all the time.

    When I really think about it, though, rules and clothes are what make the style, so if I feel restricted by judo, then I should feel restricted by greco because it doesn't allow leg grabs, or BJJ because I can't punch the person in the face.
    I'm not sure I get what you mean by "progressive" and "regressive" rule changes. The ippon change seems regressive, since it goes back to a simpler (better, most here would I assume agree) state, whereas the new restrictions are "progressive" in that they are new, although they might make the sport worse. Are you referring to negative opinions posted here?

    I also don't get any of your zen attitudes about the ruleset defining the sport. I mean yeah, it does. But you should feel restricted by BJJ: disallowing punches makes BJJ competition less realistic, if not less useful as a training aid. That's why top BJJ players (some, at least) say what I said before: the top level of BJJ is its application to MMA.

    From this point of view, changes to the ruleset are bad if they breed worse fighters, even if they couldn't, by definition, reduce the efficacy of judoka in Judo.

    So if Judo changes, sure, that's the new sport now; within Judo, 50% of the fighters still win their matches at every comp, so it's easy to hand-wave away these complaints. But if in 20 years judoka are not very good at pajama wrestling compared to those who are allowed freedom in grip fighting, that will be evidence of degradation to the art's practicality in an objective way.
  8. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/04/2014 10:12pm


     Style: Kendo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please watch your attributions, I didn't say any of that stuff in the 2nd quote.
  9. blackmonk is online now
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2014 11:37am

    supporting member
     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    I was talking about the things they did ban. I like doing two-handed and knee grip breaks, and have several times shown people those specific techniques. Peeps be like, "neat!"



    I'm not sure I get what you mean by "progressive" and "regressive" rule changes. The ippon change seems regressive, since it goes back to a simpler (better, most here would I assume agree) state, whereas the new restrictions are "progressive" in that they are new, although they might make the sport worse. Are you referring to negative opinions posted here?

    I also don't get any of your zen attitudes about the ruleset defining the sport. I mean yeah, it does. But you should feel restricted by BJJ: disallowing punches makes BJJ competition less realistic, if not less useful as a training aid. That's why top BJJ players (some, at least) say what I said before: the top level of BJJ is its application to MMA.

    From this point of view, changes to the ruleset are bad if they breed worse fighters, even if they couldn't, by definition, reduce the efficacy of judoka in Judo.

    So if Judo changes, sure, that's the new sport now; within Judo, 50% of the fighters still win their matches at every comp, so it's easy to hand-wave away these complaints. But if in 20 years judoka are not very good at pajama wrestling compared to those who are allowed freedom in grip fighting, that will be evidence of degradation to the art's practicality in an objective way.
    Regressive/progressive in interpretation... Many people perceive further gripping and throwing restrictions as regressive.

    Although the "zen" comment seems a bit condescending, I'll oblige: If you want to learn punches, then don't study BJJ. If you want to attack the legs when you wrestle, get into freestyle, and not greco. You are making distinctions about the efficacy of one sport using the criteria of another, yet they clearly exist independently of each other.
  10. ZZMaxX is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2014 12:09pm


     Style: Kyokushin, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    That's sad about the grip breaks...

    When I think about BJJ getting worse like this, I console myself that "the real BJJ" is found in MMA anyway. It would be nice if there were a similar benchmark for judo. Like if some oil shiek financed a lavishly-pursed MMA competition wherein the competitors fought in the judogi, on a surface of solid granite.
    I don't think it's lavishly-pursed, but....

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