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  1. CrackFox is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2014 2:04pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK, I see what you mean.

    How do you think this will affect uchi-mata? Right now it's pretty much king of the ring, but most people I know don't really have that great a finish on it.
  2. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2014 2:12pm


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Uchimata is one of those throws that can get that sideways roll across the back quite a bit, so I think it remains to be seen how the interpretation is going to settle in on that. However I think it's way easier to land uke flush with that than with seoi-otoshi or o/ko-uchigari, a few more popular waza. I see a lot of people who like seoi-otoshi but their technique is to spin in and cling like a leech until the roll happens. I am happy to see the new rule applied there.
  3. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2014 2:16pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    The concern was not directly the force so much as the flat on the back part which will affect force. For example, if your tokui-waza is seoi-otoshi, then the outcome is typically a roll, and you can't get ippon with that anymore. That means you are going to have to seriously launch your opponent so the feet fly over and you get that flush landing, and that's going to cause a much harder landing.

    The rolling landing thing is a bit of a debate. At the SaskOpen I was one of the camera refs when ippon was called on a taotoshi. Uke rolled sideways across his back, very quickly. Really you could only see it on the rewind, and we debated it after watching it back half a dozen times. The senior guy there thought that if you had to look at it that close and it had been called on the floor, it could stand as ippon. Even though I like the new rule, I thought it was a beautiful throw and should have been ippon. Most there thought it was on the edge. So I guess we just need more experience and direction with these rules. If we get too anal about the flush landing we are going to negate a lot of nice ippon and potentially raise injury rates as people try to bury uke in compensation.
    Seoi Otoshi with a rolling landing by uke is common. I used seoi otoshi extensively when I competed and through guys hard on fast without rolling them. I also rolled a lot and got waza ari or even yuko.

    Nobody every got hurt (except for the idiots that decided to arch their back and take ukemi on the face...those guys got concussions). My experience as a player is born out by my experience reffing and coaching as well. A hard fast on the back landing from seoi otoshi isn't going to hurt anyone any more or less than another hard throw to the back.

    The 'old' way of looking at things was as follows. You may be familiar with it already.

    1.) Ippon- uke lands largely on the back with considerable speed and force, with control (by tori) The trick here is the definition of "largely on the back", which over the years changed from both shoulders down to "any spot on the anatomically defined back, including the lower back, one shoulder, etc.), back to now, well, it's not so clear (yet). I remember being told (actually shushed at a ref meeting at Collegiate Nationals) at one point by a senior US referee "We all know what ippon is when we see it, don't ask such a silly question".

    So the question to the answer is, "What is the definition of largely on the back"

    2.) I agree with your senior ref. Splitting hairs is one consequence of of having video cameras available.

    3.) I don't think injury rates will go up. In the heat of the moment, we all try to throw uke as hard as possible onto their back, at least I did. That hasn't changed in over 100 years, I think.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2014 3:00pm


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I didn't say I agreed with that view, just that there was that concern raised.
  5. Wing-Kwan-Fu is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2014 2:23am


     Style: Standup, Ground-fighting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's sad about the grip breaks...

    When I think about BJJ getting worse like this, I console myself that "the real BJJ" is found in MMA anyway. It would be nice if there were a similar benchmark for judo. Like if some oil shiek financed a lavishly-pursed MMA competition wherein the competitors fought in the judogi, on a surface of solid granite.
  6. CrackFox is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2014 8:50am

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    That's sad about the grip breaks...
    What exactly is sad about it?
  7. Wing-Kwan-Fu is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2014 9:45am


     Style: Standup, Ground-fighting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    What exactly is sad about it?
    Just that it's a new restriction, and it happens to restrict something I've done before. I was always surprised how many people don't know how to break grips, and this rule can only encourage not teaching it. Maybe it's negative in judo sometimes, but it always seemed useful...
  8. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2014 10:34am


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    Just that it's a new restriction, and it happens to restrict something I've done before. I was always surprised how many people don't know how to break grips, and this rule can only encourage not teaching it. Maybe it's negative in judo sometimes, but it always seemed useful...
    It's not illegal to break a grip, you just can't use two hands to do it anymore. Lots of ways to strip grips.
  9. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2014 11:38am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    OK, I see what you mean.

    How do you think this will affect uchi-mata? Right now it's pretty much king of the ring, but most people I know don't really have that great a finish on it.
    We will have to wait and see how the IJF decides they want to define "largely on the back".

    In the past, I was told that where the hardest impact happens is important. For example, land very hard on the side and roll to back, waza ari. Brush side and land very hard on back, waza ari or even ippon in years gone by.

    The butt to back yuko is a good example.

    In the meantime, people need to work on their uchi mata, LOL.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2014 11:41am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    Uchimata is one of those throws that can get that sideways roll across the back quite a bit, so I think it remains to be seen how the interpretation is going to settle in on that. However I think it's way easier to land uke flush with that than with seoi-otoshi or o/ko-uchigari, a few more popular waza. I see a lot of people who like seoi-otoshi but their technique is to spin in and cling like a leech until the roll happens. I am happy to see the new rule applied there.
    Me too on the application. Flop and drop Seoi Otoshi is an ugly copout most of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    I didn't say I agreed with that view, just that there was that concern raised.
    Didn't think you did, Neil. May have come out that way, though.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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