228076 Bullies, 4512 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 11 to 20 of 20
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    170

    Posted On:
    2/01/2014 7:25pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Of course it could be the other way around as well: loose hold/free style wrestling became more and more restricted and eventually became a fixed hold style of wrestling. Or it could be that different regions just happened to develop either loose hold/freestyle or fixed styles.

    Any ideas?
  2. DCS is online now
    DCS's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,039

    Posted On:
    2/04/2014 4:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Folk belt wrestling.... you can wrestle without ripping the few clothes you can afford.
  3. Permalost is offline
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    12,585

    Posted On:
    2/04/2014 5:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    My question is, and this is probably impossible to know but I think some discussion on it could be interesting, since the mongols invaded much of eurasia, were all of these styles offshoots of Mongolian Bukh? Or were the rules developed on their own, you think?

    No doubt the Mongols influenced all of these culture. I'm wondering whether the fixed hold systems like tatar wrestling, and the jacket systems like georgian chidaoba, are just limited forms of bukh, and bukh was the complete original form. Or, perhaps Bukh has evolved from an older style of fixed hold belt wrestling, such as the type seen in ancient artwork (think of that Mesopotamian Sculpture with the two belt wresters with vases on their heads.)

    I've heard it argued that fixed hold wrestling is the oldest form of wrestling.

    Any ideas?
    Cultures don't often diffuse things in the simple way people often imagine it (something is invented in one place, and it spreads from there). There's also covergent evolution, and parallel evolution, of cultural traits and practices. This is why you don't need aliens or Atlantis to explain the existence of pyramids across the globe. I'd also suggest that when 2 cultures interact, both are usually changed. So, even though buhk has a consistent set of rules, techniques or attitudes may have changed as it encountered other wrestling styles. I'll bet bukh today is a different beast than it was when it stayed isolated in Mongolia.
  4. W. Rabbit is offline
    W. Rabbit's Avatar

    There's not enough words to describe my existence.

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Work
    Posts
    8,282

    Posted On:
    2/05/2014 10:46am

    supporting member
     Style: No Style

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Egyptian, 4000 years old (~2400 BC)

    If you look closely, sure seems like they are wearing some sort of ceremonial belt, possibly functional..



    Chinese "jiao li" (shuai jiao ancestor), 7th century. Visible sumo-like belts or wrapping.

    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 2/05/2014 10:51am at .
  5. BKR is online now
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,735

    Posted On:
    2/05/2014 8:29pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    People wear belts.

    People wrestle.

    Go figure...
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    170

    Posted On:
    2/07/2014 7:01pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Folk belt wrestling.... you can wrestle without ripping the few clothes you can afford.
    This makes a lot of sense. I've read that that is why catch wrestlers would wear those tight leggings, because back in the day, the poor folks couldn't wrestle in their regular clothes because they couldn't afford proper wrestling gear and they couldn't afford to buy new clothing, so they would strip to their skivvies when wrasslin.
  7. Permalost is offline
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    12,585

    Posted On:
    2/07/2014 7:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't really see anything suggesting belt wrestling in the Egyptial burial mural. There's sort of a belt in some of the pics but I don't see techs where its being gripped. Looks to me like its just there to suggest pants (my little martial arts drawings in my martial arts tome are pretty similar, with one guy white with black pants and the other black with white pants).
  8. BKR is online now
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,735

    Posted On:
    2/07/2014 7:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Imagine the...odor while wrestling back in the days when bathing wasn't considered quite as necessary. Wrasslin' in skivvies in that case loses a lot of it's charm. If it ever had any.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. W. Rabbit is offline
    W. Rabbit's Avatar

    There's not enough words to describe my existence.

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Work
    Posts
    8,282

    Posted On:
    2/07/2014 8:54pm

    supporting member
     Style: No Style

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I don't really see anything suggesting belt wrestling in the Egyptial burial mural. There's sort of a belt in some of the pics but I don't see techs where its being gripped. Looks to me like its just there to suggest pants (my little martial arts drawings in my martial arts tome are pretty similar, with one guy white with black pants and the other black with white pants).
    A couple of the sequences do look like the belt is being used, take a closer look, zoomed in.
  10. Keej613 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ottawa (Canada)
    Posts
    285

    Posted On:
    2/10/2014 2:11pm


     Style: It's complicated.

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you want to really nerd out on this, you could look at it from a different perspective.

    For example, from the perspective of linguistics.

    Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian are all part of a language family called the Uralic languages. As we all know, because of their geographic locations, the languages and cultures of the people from these regions have also been heavily influenced by the Scandinavian and Slavic langauges.

    Believe it or not, a lot of historical linguists believe that these languages are related to another language family called the Altaic languages which includes the Turkic languages (Turkish and related languages), Mongolic (the Mongolian language and related languages), Tungusic (a variety of languages from the Tunguska area of Russian), Koreanic (Korean and related languages), and Japonic languages (Japanese and related languages).

    Looking at the regions covered by these different language families, you can almost see a map flowing from one end of the Eurasian continent to the other.

    So that means that there's enough historical material out there that shows a link between the languages and cultures of countries as geographically disparate as Finland, Turkey, Mongolia and Japan (etc.)

    Now, assuming that belt wrestling started in a single place and then possible spread elsewhere, you could use history and/or linguistics to illustrate how cultural components (like language or sports or other cultural practices) from seemingly different geographical locations and cultures could actually have originated from the same place and then spread across the world.

    If you run wikipedia searches for any of the terms listed above, you'll find loads of info and maps about the languages themselves as well as their geographic regions, their spread, the ethnic groups from which they originate, etc. Reading it all, it becomes much more clear that it's not so crazy to think that anything from Finland might be rooted in Mongolia via Turkey or vice-versa.



    Ex: the spread of altaic languages across Eurasia
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.