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  1. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2014 6:03pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Root of Belt Wrestling?

    I'm not sure if this should be in this forum, because it deals with Mongolian Bukh wrestling, but I have to bring up Mongolian Bukh in order to ask my question about more European styles of wrestling.

    So here go's:


    Bukh, the National wrestling style of Mongolia. You wear a small vest with an open front, boots, and a very tight, tiny pair of pants. You are allowed to grab any of the clothing, and may grasp the legs for any of your attacks. It's very similar to freestyle wrestling except for the fact that you can grab the clothing and that if something other than your hands and feet touch the ground (i.e. knees, ass, shoulders) you lose.

    Now, there are styles of wrestling all throughout Eurasia that use either pants or a jacket or a belt or all of the above to grab on to. Some of these styles do not allow touching of the legs with the hands, some styles are fixed holds (on the belt only, on the collar only, and you can't let go) some styles do not allow tripping with the legs (such as Koresh, tatar wrestling) so you must only do suplex-like throws.

    My question is, and this is probably impossible to know but I think some discussion on it could be interesting, since the mongols invaded much of eurasia, were all of these styles offshoots of Mongolian Bukh? Or were the rules developed on their own, you think?

    No doubt the Mongols influenced all of these culture. I'm wondering whether the fixed hold systems like tatar wrestling, and the jacket systems like georgian chidaoba, are just limited forms of bukh, and bukh was the complete original form. Or, perhaps Bukh has evolved from an older style of fixed hold belt wrestling, such as the type seen in ancient artwork (think of that Mesopotamian Sculpture with the two belt wresters with vases on their heads.)

    I've heard it argued that fixed hold wrestling is the oldest form of wrestling.

    Any ideas?
  2. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2014 6:08pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

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    (SOme tatar and other styles)

    Mongol Bukh

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry-OuWGhjVg
  3. Krijgsman is online now

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2014 6:57pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

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    My opinion (uninformed by specific sources but informed by studying history) is it is likely a matter of similar things developing in different places independent of each other. Pretty much every culture wrestles. Most cultures wear belts. I would be surprised if a single point of genesis exists for all Eurasian belt wrestling. But that is based on my initial suspicion, not actual research.
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2014 3:39pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krijgsman View Post
    My opinion (uninformed by specific sources but informed by studying history) is it is likely a matter of similar things developing in different places independent of each other. Pretty much every culture wrestles. Most cultures wear belts. I would be surprised if a single point of genesis exists for all Eurasian belt wrestling. But that is based on my initial suspicion, not actual research.
    The difficulty of tracing actual "lineages of influence" in folk-wrestling styles is compounded by the fact that there are often no detailed records to work with; for example, it's almost impossible to prove that a modern rendition of a given style is an accurate representation of that style as it may have existed, say, three hundred years ago.
  5. RynoGreene is online now

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2014 3:29pm


     Style: FMA/SAMBO

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    I'd guess that Glima (Icelandic wrestling) probably wasn't influenced by Mongolians. They didn't make it into Scandinavia, which was probably the at roots of this wrestling style.

  6. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2014 6:37pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    My question is, and this is probably impossible to know but I think some discussion on it could be interesting, since the mongols invaded much of eurasia, were all of these styles offshoots of Mongolian Bukh? Or were the rules developed on their own, you think?
    No.

    The Mongol invasions occurred after the 13th century, but there is archaeological evidence illustrating jacket and belt wrestling having existed in the BC era, at least several thousand years prior in some cases.

    There is a really neat, BC-era sculpture of two figures wrestling and holding each other's belt. I forget where it came from..Sumerian maybe?

    I'll try to find it.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2014 6:40pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by RynoGreene View Post
    I'd guess that Glima (Icelandic wrestling) probably wasn't influenced by Mongolians. They didn't make it into Scandinavia, which was probably the at roots of this wrestling style.
    In theory, the concept of belt wrestling could have migrated from Mongolia via Eastern Europe to Scandinavia and then to Iceland.
  8. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/31/2014 7:09pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

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    Thanks for the replies guys! Really interesting food for thought.

    I like the Western Martial arts forum. If had posted this in YMAS, I would have gotten a bunch of "this thread is dumb" posts. Haha
  9. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/31/2014 7:12pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    The difficulty of tracing actual "lineages of influence" in folk-wrestling styles is compounded by the fact that there are often no detailed records to work with; for example, it's almost impossible to prove that a modern rendition of a given style is an accurate representation of that style as it may have existed, say, three hundred years ago.
    I know, I'm more interested in people's ideas of what could have happened (Just "Hey, maybe this happened" type stuff). I know no one will actually be able to trace most of the actual history of these sports and how they came to be etc.
  10. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/31/2014 7:18pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    No.

    The Mongol invasions occurred after the 13th century, but there is archaeological evidence illustrating jacket and belt wrestling having existed in the BC era, at least several thousand years prior in some cases.

    There is a really neat, BC-era sculpture of two figures wrestling and holding each other's belt. I forget where it came from..Sumerian maybe?

    I'll try to find it.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j...91300221379551

    It is a Mesopotamian Belt wrestling statue, which appears to be conducted in a fixed start position. I wonder if Fixed hold styles of wrestling are the most ancient? And loose hold styles are of a more recent development?

    http://belt-wrestling.org/tmp/28_eng.pdf
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