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  1. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 9:16am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll slightly amend my prior answer about diminishing returns.

    Different people find different kinds of training easier or harder, but I think that after someone has reached "not weak" and then ramps up their grappling to a bunch of times a week, then there are options. If they have energy left over after five grappling sessions a week, or if they can't attend grappling that much, then in my opinion they can combine strength work with grappling up to a modest level of strength and power.

    What I mean is that I found that achieving a 2xBW deadlift with twice-a-week lifting on top of thrice-a-week judo wasn't so bad, but trying to go beyond that caused problems. Same with ~1.5xBW squat, 1xBW power clean, ~1xBW jerk. Now, to a dedicated powerlifter or Oly lifter, those are laughably weak beginner/intermediate numbers. But for a grappler who isn't elite they're pretty damn good. I think that a lot of healthy grapplers can get to roughly that level of strength before diminishing returns really kick in.

    So a bodyweight deadlift is the bare minimum to really train judo, a 1.5xBW deadlift is noticeably better and not that hard to achieve, a 2xBW deadlift is noticeably useful and requires a reasonable amount of effort, but maybe a 2.5xBW deadlift doesn't give much more return on investment compared to the 2xBW deadlift, and a 3xBW deadlift requires enough specific training that it definitely would hurt most people's judo more than it would help.

    That low-intermediate strength/athleticism zone is probably where the diminishing returns start to kick in for most combat athletes.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  2. itwasntme is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 10:50am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, using this scale of what percentage of one's bodyweight they deadlift, how many sets/reps at a particular percentage dictates one's ability?

    5x5? 3x5? 3RM? 1RM?
    Start a training log!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    i really think that those who can't get their head around the bowing thing (because their angry sky daddy will punish them) don't deserve judo. life is full of choices, and if your bronze age superstitions are holding you back, so be it.
  3. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 11:01am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
    So, using this scale of what percentage of one's bodyweight they deadlift, how many sets/reps at a particular percentage dictates one's ability?

    5x5? 3x5? 3RM? 1RM?
    I wouldn't use multiple sets to gauge anything, but I also don't think it's necessary to pin things down so concretely. A 1- to 5-rep max in the fuzzy area near those bodyweight markers, used as a benchmark but not a primary goal, is what I have in mind.

    And I wasn't trying to make the deadlift into the sine qua non of strength measurement, but rather refer to the (again, fuzzily defined) set of things *like* the deadlift: deadlift, back or front squat, power clean or snatch or other Oly variants, pull-ups, dips, bench, overhead press, and so on are all qualified to play the role of strength benchmark.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  4. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 11:32am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    I'll slightly amend my prior answer about diminishing returns.

    Different people find different kinds of training easier or harder, but I think that after someone has reached "not weak" and then ramps up their grappling to a bunch of times a week, then there are options. If they have energy left over after five grappling sessions a week, or if they can't attend grappling that much, then in my opinion they can combine strength work with grappling up to a modest level of strength and power.

    What I mean is that I found that achieving a 2xBW deadlift with twice-a-week lifting on top of thrice-a-week judo wasn't so bad, but trying to go beyond that caused problems. Same with ~1.5xBW squat, 1xBW power clean, ~1xBW jerk. Now, to a dedicated powerlifter or Oly lifter, those are laughably weak beginner/intermediate numbers. But for a grappler who isn't elite they're pretty damn good. I think that a lot of healthy grapplers can get to roughly that level of strength before diminishing returns really kick in.

    So a bodyweight deadlift is the bare minimum to really train judo, a 1.5xBW deadlift is noticeably better and not that hard to achieve, a 2xBW deadlift is noticeably useful and requires a reasonable amount of effort, but maybe a 2.5xBW deadlift doesn't give much more return on investment compared to the 2xBW deadlift, and a 3xBW deadlift requires enough specific training that it definitely would hurt most people's judo more than it would help.

    That low-intermediate strength/athleticism zone is probably where the diminishing returns start to kick in for most combat athletes.
    At some point, an athlete will have to transition to some sort of periodized type of training schedule. Your description is right at the very edge of that decision point.

    That is what I did, albeit in rather crude fashion, when I was training for judo competition back in the 80s. No interwebz for research, only books, journal articles gotten from Interlibrary loan, LOL. No way could I do all the hard core Judo training plus conditioning all the time, even at that young and full of cum age.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 11:37am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One thing I want to say for the reader who comes across this thread from google.

    Don't put off going and training because your out of shape and can't do a BW dead lift or push ups or anything else.

    You do not need to be in shape to start training.



    I felt the need to address this here because we do get a lot of lurkers and I would hate for someone to postpone starting.
  6. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 1:12pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Strength differences are important during training, especially if you don't get a lot of opportunities to roll with people significantly stronger than you, technique being equal.

    Getting stronger for BJJ means anyone you roll with, if they're weaker, will generally also become stronger through that process too, and the cycle continues. The more strength variation you get in your partners, the more you should progress, right?

    When I watched the weightlifter vs. video I kept thinking wow, if you merged both into the same guy, he'd be a wrecking ball.
  7. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 1:21pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Strength differences are important during training, especially if you don't get a lot of opportunities to roll with people significantly stronger than you, technique being equal.

    Getting stronger for BJJ means anyone you roll with, if they're weaker, will generally also become stronger through that process too, and the cycle continues. The more strength variation you get in your partners, the more you should progress, right?

    When I watched the weightlifter vs. video I kept thinking wow, if you merged both into the same guy, he'd be a wrecking ball.
    Well, sort of...

    The combination of superior strength with superior technique tends to leave lesser training partners frustrated (when shown no mercy), to maybe having some better technical skills (if the stronger guy has mercy and helps out).

    Physical attributes need to be trained in isolation and specifically to get the best results. No doubt if you train regularly, you can get stronger (sport specific technique training, BJJ, Judo, whatever), but results won't be maximized. Doing squats, deadlift, and powercleans helped my ability to do Judo immensely, no way was I going to get that strong just doing Judo, regardless of how hard and how much and with whom I trained.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 2:03pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Physical attributes need to be trained in isolation and specifically to get the best results. No doubt if you train regularly, you can get stronger (sport specific technique training, BJJ, Judo, whatever), but results won't be maximized. Doing squats, deadlift, and powercleans helped my ability to do Judo immensely, no way was I going to get that strong just doing Judo, regardless of how hard and how much and with whom I trained.
    What I take away from this is and the rest of the thread, is
    One don't skip going to class to work out. Get into class as often as you can to learn. While in class focus on doing the technique right not just powering through it.
    Two do some god damn strength training when you're not at the school/gym/dojo.
  9. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 3:26pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Well, sort of...

    The combination of superior strength with superior technique tends to leave lesser training partners frustrated (when shown no mercy), to maybe having some better technical skills (if the stronger guy has mercy and helps out).

    Physical attributes need to be trained in isolation and specifically to get the best results. No doubt if you train regularly, you can get stronger (sport specific technique training, BJJ, Judo, whatever), but results won't be maximized. Doing squats, deadlift, and powercleans helped my ability to do Judo immensely, no way was I going to get that strong just doing Judo, regardless of how hard and how much and with whom I trained.
    Right, so you get stronger specifically FOR BJJ, and it not only adds challenge for your partners physically, which builds some strength, but encourages them to also get stronger specifically for BJJ, otherwise they will become frustrated, as you said.

    So, I think this illustrates the point of the OP. The "requirement" of strength isn't some extraneous component to be considered separately, what itwasntme sees in BJJ is just the natural byproduct of two decades of global evolution for the sport.

    The "new strength" in BJJ is about 20 years of athletic Darwinism of sorts, the result of its explosion in popularity outside Brazil since the 90s. As long as the level of quality control remains, the motivation to improve should remain consistent among those that stay with it.

    I've long thought that BJJ would never have gotten this good if it had stayed inside Brazil. The larger, worldwide pool of people has helped evolve the art past its older limitations. In the Gracie golden years, they had far less competition.

    Now, a huge global body of competitors has emerged from just a literal handful at the start. AND they are generally getting stronger?

    Every MA should want this sort of thing, if they want to survive and stay relevant.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 2/12/2014 3:59pm at .
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