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  1. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 12:48pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    I don't think focusing on technique equates to eschewing conditioning.
    If you are rolling your getting stronger.
    I don't agree that everyone should go for a heavily physical explosive game.
    The guy showing up 2 times a week for 1 hour each should try and develop his game around a realistic expectation of his physical performance.

    When I think about success in BJJ, I tend to think about it from the perspective of a room full of kids who have a chance to be as great as they want to be because that's what I'm exposed to on a regular basis. Some guy training two hours per week is surely learning relevant self defense skills and getting some exercise, but he shouldn't be included in the discussion of what makes a great BJJ player. He's never going to be great.

    Focusing on technique doesn't have to equate to eschewing conditioning. That's not what I said. What I said was that, in reality that's exactly what a lot of BJJ practitioners happen to be doing. Not all, but a lot.

    I think BJJ is great and it can be completely grueling, but there's often a lot of laziness engrained in BJJ training as well from what I've seen. There's a huge contrast between your average BJJ practice and your average wrestling practice. When my son has wrestling practice he's learning technique, but they're also working his ass non-stop from the beginning of practice to the end. I've never seen that level of physicality in the BJJ programs I've been exposed to. I'm sure schools exist that do that, but without a doubt, it's routine with wrestling.

    As for the idea that if you're rolling, you're getting stronger - no doubt there's some truth to that but the strength gains from rolling a few rounds per week can't be compared to any type of program focused specifically on building strength.
  2. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 5:40pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    When I think about success in BJJ, I tend to think about it from the perspective of a room full of kids who have a chance to be as great as they want to be because that's what I'm exposed to on a regular basis.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Some guy training two hours per week is surely learning relevant self defense skills and getting some exercise, but he shouldn't be included in the discussion of what makes a great BJJ player. He's never going to be great.
    Also true, but first and for most this is a consumer advocacy website so its always good to keep in mind the average Joe when discussing things.
    The OP no doubt is not on his way to becoming a world champion but is interested in how to improve his game. Focusing on not just over powering his opponents and focusing more on getting proper leverage and working on timing will take him further.
    I suppose the same thing could be said for the room full of kids. Some will become great competitors most will not. I think in the long term getting really good at technique will benefit them more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Focusing on technique doesn't have to equate to eschewing conditioning. That's not what I said. What I said was that, in reality that's exactly what a lot of BJJ practitioners happen to be doing. Not all, but a lot.
    Its a fine balance, we run into the same thing everytime we talk about conditioning in class vs learning technique as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    I think BJJ is great and it can be completely grueling, but there's often a lot of laziness engrained in BJJ training as well from what I've seen.
    I think the biggest difference is its roots, the idea behind Judo was to take away the techniques that just required strength. I think one certainly can get away with being lazier in BJJ than other styles and still be effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    As for the idea that if you're rolling, you're getting stronger - no doubt there's some truth to that but the strength gains from rolling a few rounds per week can't be compared to any type of program focused specifically on building strength.
    Very true but I can work out at home by myself. I can't learn BJJ at home by myself.
  3. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2014 10:12pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Fair enough.


    Also true, but first and for most this is a consumer advocacy website so its always good to keep in mind the average Joe when discussing things.
    The OP no doubt is not on his way to becoming a world champion but is interested in how to improve his game. Focusing on not just over powering his opponents and focusing more on getting proper leverage and working on timing will take him further.
    I suppose the same thing could be said for the room full of kids. Some will become great competitors most will not. I think in the long term getting really good at technique will benefit them more.


    Its a fine balance, we run into the same thing everytime we talk about conditioning in class vs learning technique as well.


    I think the biggest difference is its roots, the idea behind Judo was to take away the techniques that just required strength. I think one certainly can get away with being lazier in BJJ than other styles and still be effective.


    Very true but I can work out at home by myself. I can't learn BJJ at home by myself.


    I don't think our views are that different, to be honest. Regardless, the best way to be a great martial artist is to be technically proficient and physically strong and well conditioned. There are always going to be varying degrees of both skill and conditioning in any population of martial artists. But everyone, including noobs and hobbyists should know what excellence looks like.
    Last edited by Devil; 2/06/2014 10:19pm at .
  4. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2014 11:28pm

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    That quite a size and strength difference. I wouldn't call the other guy small or weak which really to me drives home a certain point.
    Technique here gives the smaller guy a pretty damn decent chance.
    Even when your not small you never know when your going to have to deal with someone much bigger than you.
    So back to the OP.
    Focus on learning the proper techniques. Work on timing. Work on getting the leverage by getting the grips just right. One thing I have noticed hand placement with in inches makes a huge difference.
    and here is a 2nd video that is kind of cool sucks that the quality is so bad.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbBPU...ature=youtu.be
  5. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/09/2014 9:32am

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    I don't think those BJJ vs bodybuilder videos do a very good job of displaying the strength/technique debate. The majority of those videos that I've seen, and quite possibly all of them, show one very experienced guy against one completely inexperienced guy... And I thought the discussion wasn't about trained vs untrained, but whether grappling athletes should devote any time to strength training.

    In the video above, if the BBer had almost any amount of diligent fight training, he could have smashed the **** out of the BJJ stylist a good number of times, especially during the buttflop and triangle attempt at the beginning.

    And this is just a friendly back-and-forth or debate or whatever. What truly annoys me, though, is when BJJ guys point to videos like this and say "Look, BJJ works against everyone. This highly-skilled grappler beat a bodybuilder." Well, yes, of course he did. It's the allegorical equivalent of stiff-arming a child on the forehead and him swinging wildly but not being able to touch you.
    Last edited by blackmonk; 2/09/2014 9:37am at .
  6. itwasntme is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/09/2014 10:40am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^^I was thinking along the same lines. The bodybuilder even voiced how lost he was, having no idea what to do. He also made reference to "neck locks"....a lack of basic terminology that most people who have ever even passively watched MMA usually know kind of rules out guys like this, imo.

    Also, the bodybuilder gets called on a "leg lock" for pushing against the jiu jitsu player's leg from inside his guard? The closest he came was when he got ahold of that ankle just prior. LOL at the bodybuilder's face lighting up like someone just gave him a free cycle.

    In short, also not trying to be a dick; Yes, this was meant to be more geared towards this difference in strength and technique between two individuals that train and also who are trying to do more than "have a little playful test".
    Last edited by itwasntme; 2/09/2014 10:47am at .
    Start a training log!
  7. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/09/2014 1:32pm

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    I don't think those BJJ vs bodybuilder videos do a very good job of displaying the strength/technique debate. The majority of those videos that I've seen, and quite possibly all of them, show one very experienced guy against one completely inexperienced guy... And I thought the discussion wasn't about trained vs untrained, but whether grappling athletes should devote any time to strength training.

    In the video above, if the BBer had almost any amount of diligent fight training, he could have smashed the **** out of the BJJ stylist a good number of times, especially during the buttflop and triangle attempt at the beginning.

    And this is just a friendly back-and-forth or debate or whatever. What truly annoys me, though, is when BJJ guys point to videos like this and say "Look, BJJ works against everyone. This highly-skilled grappler beat a bodybuilder." Well, yes, of course he did. It's the allegorical equivalent of stiff-arming a child on the forehead and him swinging wildly but not being able to touch you.

    The BJJ guy said he had only 3.5 years, how many years do you think that guy has been lifting?
  8. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/09/2014 8:45pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    The BJJ guy said he had only 3.5 years, how many years do you think that guy has been lifting?
    Probably quite some time, depending on his genetics, and how many mg of test he was shooting per week.

    However, it's still two different physical training modalities, each with different goals. Of course the fighter will be a better fighter.
  9. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/09/2014 8:59pm

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Probably quite some time, depending on his genetics, and how many mg of test he was shooting per week.

    However, it's still two different physical training modalities, each with different goals. Of course the fighter will be a better fighter.

    Right, so i guess what i'm getting at is where and when does it become a point of diminished returns, S&C instead of increased mat time?

    It would seem that mat time is more important for beginners, if one had to choose, but the Sambo example seems to suggest just the opposite, that a physical foundation is paramount.

    Is a 5 year practitioner of one or the other method significantly more capable?
  10. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/09/2014 9:26pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Right, so i guess what i'm getting at is where and when does it become a point of diminished returns, S&C instead of increased mat time?

    It would seem that mat time is more important for beginners, if one had to choose, but the Sambo example seems to suggest just the opposite, that a physical foundation is paramount.

    Is a 5 year practitioner of one or the other method significantly more capable?
    Now THAT'S some interesting ****! Awesome.

    Hmmmm... If you use the sambo example, which of course probably varied from school to school, diminished returns were probably reached at the point that physical preparation quit serving the purpose of GPP, and started becoming a specialization within itself. For example, sambo wrestlers learning back handsprings in order to increase their proprioceptive awareness, strength, and flexibility would cease to receive sambo-specific benefits from that movement when they spend more time perfecting the handspring than their uchi mata. Does that make sense? Perhaps this is why the physically mature athletes switched from a physical preparation emphasis to a skills-based emphasis when their high-level competitive careers took off (this, of course, is what has been relayed to me through research, physical records, and LOTS of anecdotal evidence).

    My friend Vlad grew up training at sambo 70, and he said that his coach had the children do 100 pullups and 200 pushups every day outside of the training hall, in addition to the physical prep that they did while in training sessions.
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