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  1. blackmonk is offline
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2014 10:16am

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    Strength will always be important in any sort of combat. Hence why there are weight classes in combat sports regardless of the ruleset.

    A strength advantage can be overcome by superior skills. The reason instrustors discourage strength is if you rely on it you will eventually run into someone with equivalent strength and your technique will not work. On the flip side of the coin, the myth of the frail 100 lb master than can defeat skilled people twice his size, it just that, a myth.

    The key is always technique, followed by strength and conditioning. When you see matches like this it because the skill difference is so great:




    The way i see it is the equation for winning is (Technique * Technique) + (Strength + Conditioning). All 3 are needed to win, but technique will overcome strength exponentially.
    Damn, the big guy just couldn't move properly. I think pulling guard probably wasn't the best idea.

    I've seen the strength vs technique battle go both ways. Kurzhev got knocked out of the Sambo Worlds this year by Tsagaanbaataar, and I would say (IMHO) that Kurzhev is the far more technical sambo player. He just got wrangled by a much stronger and more determined player, and Mongol athletes are another breed of strong. I was on the receiving end of a Mongol ass-kicking at the belt wrestling championships in Russia.
  2. Scrapper is offline
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    Fear and bullets.

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2014 10:21am

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     Style: MMA

    6
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Strength buys leeway, and can prevent mistakes from being fatal. A strong guy will get away with more ****-ups than a less-strong guy, essentially.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  3. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/20/2014 12:14pm

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     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Damn, the big guy just couldn't move properly. I think pulling guard probably wasn't the best idea.

    I've seen the strength vs technique battle go both ways. Kurzhev got knocked out of the Sambo Worlds this year by Tsagaanbaataar, and I would say (IMHO) that Kurzhev is the far more technical sambo player. He just got wrangled by a much stronger and more determined player, and Mongol athletes are another breed of strong. I was on the receiving end of a Mongol ass-kicking at the belt wrestling championships in Russia.
    Any youtube video of that match?

    I think the BJJ ruleset allows to nullify a bit more of the strength advantage by allowing guard pulling. I found wrestling or playing Judo with some of the +99kg (+218lbs) monsters I encounter to be very difficult vs pulling guard seems to even the playing field.
  4. DKJr is offline
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    Fasten your seat belts, and prepare for lift off

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2014 3:56pm

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     Style: Combat Cuddling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I bet 9/10 guys Jeff's size wouldn't escape that triangle he attempted, that big dude just bulldozed through it. That's a good example of size/strength overcoming technique.
  5. W. Rabbit is offline
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    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2014 5:08pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I start BJJ classes tonight, and I am a big guy. I am very interested in getting a feel for smaller (possibly "weaker") folks trying to submit me. I haven't done that sort of thing since katame waze many years ago, when I was much younger, but possibly not as strong as I am today. I have no doubt some if not all of the instructors I will roll with who are smaller are still far more efficient than I am with their own strength, and I will probably feel pretty helpless for a while.

    I have a great old book from the 1950s called "The Secrets of Judo: A Text for Instructors and Beginners" which spends a couple of chapters on how the physics of Judo and similar arts work, with very simple examples and illustrations.

    Amazing, amazing book for both beginners and advanced. Eye opening and does not require a heavy math background to understand the physics involved. Also recommended by Risei Kano, president of the Kodokan, once upon a time.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Secrets-Ju...071457-9504122

    Some of the best examples are the ones that help explain judoic (my word) efficiency with regards to various elements like energy, momentum, leverage, etc. They use the examples of simple machines (lever, screw, wedge) to show how judo uses similar principles to LESSEN the amount of raw strength required to do Work (as in newton-meters or joules of work). So, for judo, it's easy to show how leverage and certain motion can help a tiny person throw a big guy over their shoulder without having to use a lot of strength. It's all in the physics.

    But all that same physical principle applies to BJJ too, just from a different perspective. It's all the same physics. If you train ways to utilize the same things (energy, momentum, leverage, etc) you are actually learning to CONSERVE strength and energy when fighting...imho this is a critical skill and largely what seems to separate the Pros from the No's.

    I know Royce Gracie while big, was much smaller than his biggest opponents and if there is one UFC fight that demonstrates absolute mastery of conserving strength until the right moment, it was Gracie vs Severn in UFC 4.

    One round, almost 16m long.





    Your muscles will always thank you for using them when they are not needed, and they will have better reserves left for when you do really need them.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 1/20/2014 5:28pm at .
  6. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/20/2014 6:43pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    Any youtube video of that match?

    I think the BJJ ruleset allows to nullify a bit more of the strength advantage by allowing guard pulling. I found wrestling or playing Judo with some of the +99kg (+218lbs) monsters I encounter to be very difficult vs pulling guard seems to even the playing field.
    I can't find a video of that match alone. It is buried in the several-hour-long prelim videos from the 2013 Worlds, though.
  7. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2014 11:03am

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
    This post may (read, will) be somewhat unorganized, but I promise it has a point. Promise.

    Being a bigger guy, I am naturally stronger than many of the people I roll/have rolled with. If I feel like I am even getting close to muscling something, I will completely abandon it, even if I don't have another option directly lined up. After all, I have heard from the start that BJJ is based upon not needing to rely on strength.

    I have been thinking about this concept lately, and a post in another thread----drove me to finally ask about this.

    1) Is the above assertion necessarily true, and if so, in what ways? This is more a question for curiosity's sake.

    2) How relevant is this concept of not needing strength for BJJ is in today's BJJ world?

    When multiple-time world champs look like this:

    Attachment 15812

    but only weighs 170 lbs, it seems like this may not necessarily be the case.

    3) So, is BJJ turning into SAMBO, or at least a more strength-oriented sport?


    Obviously strength tends to be a deciding factor, but I don't think anyone needs to hear that "there are weight classes for a reason".

    These statements have angered me!

    But I must now poop and go open gym.

    Anger rant comes later.
  8. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/21/2014 11:40am

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     Style: 柔術

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    These statements have angered me!

    But I must now poop and go open gym.

    Anger rant comes later.
    If you are not pooping and posting at the same time, you are failing to use modern technology to its fullest extent.
    Last edited by Plasma; 1/21/2014 12:59pm at .
  9. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/21/2014 12:19pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    Any youtube video of that match?

    I think the BJJ ruleset allows to nullify a bit more of the strength advantage by allowing guard pulling. I found wrestling or playing Judo with some of the +99kg (+218lbs) monsters I encounter to be very difficult vs pulling guard seems to even the playing field.


    This is Tsagaanbaatar vs Papou in the finals. A very controversial match. Papou is Kurzhev's rival-of-sorts. Kurzhev was eliminated in the round before this one, after getting bulldogged by Tsagaanbaatar.
  10. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/21/2014 12:31pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To use strength is okay, to rely upon it is not. To beleve your mastery of timing, technique and leverage elimates the need for strength is delusional.
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