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  1. Keej613 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2014 9:31am


     Style: It's complicated.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Judo: Opponent Gives Up His Back From Standing: What Should I Do?

    Hey guys! I'm a Judo noob. I've done a bit of JJJ and a bit of BJJ in the past so my (very limited) game right now consists of basic hipthrows and basic newaza.

    Last night, during randori, one of my training partners consistently gave up his back from the standing position. He grips my lapel and sleeve and then it's like he overturns over me when attempting to off-balance me and I almost always wind up to his side or behind him and able to reach around his neck to attempt a rear naked choke. Every time this happens, my sensei (who knows I've done a bit of JJJ/BJJ) tells me to take him to the ground rather than attempt a standing RNR but I'm not sure how to safely do this. I could yank on him or just quickly sit down and try to get my hooks in but that sounds kindof of risky to my partner. Any thoughts on how to accomplish this? (Or, if there's something more judo-ey I should do from this position, I'm all ears!)

    I've managed to get a few guys into guillotine choke from standing, too. Same deal here. Sensei wants me to take it to the ground but I'm not sure how to do it safely.

    Thanks for the advice!
  2. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2014 9:59am

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     Style: 柔術

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are a lot of answers from behind someone. Personally I use an Otoshi movement (think Tani Otoshi ) but from behind.

    As for the standing guillotine, I usually use that to hit a Sumi Gaeshi and finish the guillotine from mount.

    This is just what I do, there are a lot of correct answers.
    Last edited by Plasma; 1/15/2014 10:12am at .
  3. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2014 11:08am

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you're a beginner, and it's a judo class, don't guillotine people. It's one of these things that is technically legal, but almost everyone is going to accuse you of neck-cranking, and you are not going to have a good time.

    As to what to do when they give their back, there are lots of options, you can do tani otoshi, you can pick them up and go for an ura-nage or something similar (but I would strongly suggest you don't finish this throw if you get it, as it really hurts - just put them back down on their feet after you get the lift.)

    Most of the time though, you'll find they lean forward as they turn their back, which makes taking them backward difficult. Often the best thing is to actually slip your hips in front of them and go for a left handed throw. Uki-goshi is the one that is usually advised, as it can be done to the left with right handed grips, but I prefer to switch grips and go for tai-otoshi.

    Another option is to first slip your hips, but then clip their legs out as you come around. Usually I'll go for this if I feel them correcting their balance as I'm trying to position myself for the tai-otoshi. The actual throw used here is going to vary a lot and is something you just have to get a feel for.
    Last edited by CrackFox; 1/15/2014 11:16am at .
  4. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2014 11:27am

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh and another thing. A lot of people when they fail a turning throw, and realise that you have their back will try and drop into turtle. This is one reason you don't want to go for an RNC, as their drop combined with your RNC can end up looking like you just got seoi-otoshied. Hell, some guys might seoi-otoshi you on purpose if they feel your arm come over their shoulder.

    Anyway, this turtle drop is something you should be prepared for, and you should be ready to follow up with some decisive ne-waza before they get too comfortable. Probably too early for you to start thinking seriously about this though.
  5. Keej613 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2014 12:42pm


     Style: It's complicated.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    There are a lot of answers from behind someone. Personally I use an Otoshi movement (think Tani Otoshi ) but from behind.
    Cool! Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    As for the standing guillotine, I usually use that to hit a Sumi Gaeshi and finish the guillotine from mount.
    Just checked that out on youtube. Won't attempt that without a lot of slow / safe practice first. ;)



    And thanks for the tips, Crackfox!
  6. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2014 12:51pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keej613 View Post
    Hey guys! I'm a Judo noob. I've done a bit of JJJ and a bit of BJJ in the past so my (very limited) game right now consists of basic hipthrows and basic newaza.

    Last night, during randori, one of my training partners consistently gave up his back from the standing position. He grips my lapel and sleeve and then it's like he overturns over me when attempting to off-balance me and I almost always wind up to his side or behind him and able to reach around his neck to attempt a rear naked choke. Every time this happens, my sensei (who knows I've done a bit of JJJ/BJJ) tells me to take him to the ground rather than attempt a standing RNR but I'm not sure how to safely do this. I could yank on him or just quickly sit down and try to get my hooks in but that sounds kindof of risky to my partner. Any thoughts on how to accomplish this? (Or, if there's something more judo-ey I should do from this position, I'm all ears!)

    I've managed to get a few guys into guillotine choke from standing, too. Same deal here. Sensei wants me to take it to the ground but I'm not sure how to do it safely.

    Thanks for the advice!
    I have a degree in Obviouslolgoy, so bear with me on this one.

    You have a sensei. He is obviously paying attention to what is going on in randori, especially between beginners. He also knows that standing chokes are not the province of beginners, which is excellent !

    So, first thing, ASK YOUR SENSEI HOW TO SAFELY TAKE YOUR TRAINING PARTNER TO THE GROUND FROM THAT GENERAL SITUATION AT THE TIME IT HAPPENS OR SOMETIME IN THAT TRAINING SESSION. instead of getting on the Internet and asking total strangers what to do.

    Don't go off and take advice on using throws you (apparently) know nothing about...Tani Otoshi, standing Mae Hadaka Jime (front Guillotine) to Sumi Gaeshi, stuff like that. Neither are beginner friendly throws or entries to throws.

    Try to use the techniques you already know and can do relatively safely.

    So, to reiterate, ask your sensei at the time, or after class, for how to do what he wants you to do.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2014 1:48pm

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     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I have a degree in Obviouslolgoy, so bear with me on this one.

    You have a sensei. He is obviously paying attention to what is going on in randori, especially between beginners. He also knows that standing chokes are not the province of beginners, which is excellent !

    So, first thing, ASK YOUR SENSEI HOW TO SAFELY TAKE YOUR TRAINING PARTNER TO THE GROUND FROM THAT GENERAL SITUATION AT THE TIME IT HAPPENS OR SOMETIME IN THAT TRAINING SESSION. instead of getting on the Internet and asking total strangers what to do.

    Don't go off and take advice on using throws you (apparently) know nothing about...Tani Otoshi, standing Mae Hadaka Jime (front Guillotine) to Sumi Gaeshi, stuff like that. Neither are beginner friendly throws or entries to throws.

    Try to use the techniques you already know and can do relatively safely.

    So, to reiterate, ask your sensei at the time, or after class, for how to do what he wants you to do.
    This is better advice. Now I look dumb....
  8. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2014 2:37pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Giving you their back" isn't really a concept that I encountered/encounter much in judo or sambo circles, as the position isn't inherently advantageous... as in you don't get 4 points for being there.

    Makes me wonder if the guy was trying to throw with makikomi.
  9. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2014 3:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    This is better advice. Now I look dumb....
    Wasn't my intent to upbraid anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    "Giving you their back" isn't really a concept that I encountered/encounter much in judo or sambo circles, as the position isn't inherently advantageous... as in you don't get 4 points for being there.

    Makes me wonder if the guy was trying to throw with makikomi.
    It sounds to me like a noob who was just turning for a forward throw without really effecting his uke balance. it is pretty common thing.

    The OP has some BJJ experience, so hence his use of "giving you their back".
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2014 3:25pm

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     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Wasn't my intent to upbraid anyone.

    You didn't. I was half-joking. I am the type of person that drills a set of technique ad nauseam. During my Judo years it was sutemi-waza. I tend to forget that Sutemi-Waza is not a beginners game.
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