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  1. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2014 1:07pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Villain View Post
    I'm pretty sure it can still function as a slicer. There's not one position that a slicer comes from and that technique makes for a good slicer, which is why you see colored belts being DQed for it.
    Coloured belts get DQ'd for it because refs don't recognise the position, you can't meaningfully slicer from there.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Villain View Post
    The two are not mutually exclusive. The only toe holds legal in the gi are straight toe holds which function a bit differently than twisting toe holds. I'm pretty sure this one is legal and is a straight toe hold.
    You're using "straight" and "twisting" in a way I'm not familiar with here. Toe holds are a twisting leg lock, they cause the leg to twist in the normal meaning of the word? What's the modification that makes it IBJJF illegal?
  2. The Villain is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2014 1:37pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Anytime you have the arm isolated in that position, you can apply a slicer. Thats why they're getting DQed.

    Toe holds are a straight leg lock by default. They pressure down on the ankle and pop the joint. Twisting leg locks tend to target the knee. If you take the toe hold and start steering their legs to the inside, it turns it into a twisting toe hold which will tear their knee in addition to popping the ankle. You can also reverse the grip and twist to the leg to the outside, it will pop the knee instead of the ankle.
  3. sambosteve is offline
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    Stillness is death

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2014 2:45pm

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     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    You're using "straight" and "twisting" in a way I'm not familiar with here. Toe holds are a twisting leg lock, they cause the leg to twist in the normal meaning of the word? What's the modification that makes it IBJJF illegal?
    Agreed. People should specify: twisting of the ankle vs the knee. These two are often intertwined, but as an example one can put a straight achilles lock that twists the knee, etc. BTW, a good "straight" achilles does actually involve a twist of the ankle. So, for my money all good leg locks (ankle, knee, and hip) involve twisting.
    One of the best Bullshido investigations ever written: http://www.bullshido.org/David_Kujawski_Investigation

    "disgruntled ex student who couldn't hack training with Dave and his material and opted out (could be called pussied out) of training to go to Sambo" - Mor Sao
  4. The Villain is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2014 3:15pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Toe holds twist neither ankle nor knee. They hyperextend the joint, as opposed to over-rotating it. Hence being a straight leg lock. On the other hand, when you put some torque into it and start turning the foot instead of using the simple figure four grip, it targets just the knee with a twisting lock, with a straight ankle attack at the ankle.

    Toe holds twist neither ankle nor knee. They hyperextend the joint, as opposed to over-rotating it. Hence being a straight leg lock. On the other hand, when you put some torque into it and start turning the foot instead of using the simple figure four grip, it targets just the knee with a twisting lock, with a straight ankle attack at the ankle.
  5. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2014 3:26pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DKJr View Post
    Your powers (of sarcasm) are weak old man.

    Or the fact I woke up and saw this and didn't have my coffee.
  6. DKJr is offline
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    Fasten your seat belts, and prepare for lift off

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2014 4:42pm

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     Style: Combat Cuddling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Or the fact I woke up and saw this and didn't have my coffee.
    Old man comment still stands, gramps.

    Oh and to add something of value. I like the "reverse rnc" grip rather than the same side RNC grip on the ankle. I feel like they can spin out easier.

    I'm gonna try for it this weekend at a comp in the opportunity presents itself.
  7. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2014 5:11pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I call it the figure 4. Just saying you young whipper snapper.
  8. Mr.Miyagi is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/21/2014 8:55pm


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sambosteve View Post
    Someone asked me to watch this vid the other day. This, to me, is not a new tech. My coach was showing me this grip years ago. Having said that, I do like it. This video shows a bit closer to the version I prefer, which is with the reverse grip (the far side arm coming beneath the target leg). The OP video has same side grip which applies less pressure and IMO is easier to defend. Far side grip applies WAY more pressure on the foot/ankle. I definitely grab it during knee shields, scissor sweeps or when folks post their foot on my hips. Or, in some cases when my achilles lock (top side, with reap of course) is not working, I can hip out slightly to make room to come in with the far side RNC type grip.
    (from the bolded above) I'd actually missed that in the original video as I had learnt the move from the vid series that Zap linked the first one of.

    I definitely prefer the far side arm coming beneath the leg as it helps draw the leg/foot into you for better control and higher percentage of finishing; where as if I use the same side, I find it's easier for my parter to rotate their foot out and if it's in a scramble sometimes I can knock it to the side if I'm over eager missing my attack opportunity.
    Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

    Miyagi: Feeling correct.

    Daniel: You sure know how to make a guy feel confident.

    Miyagi: You trust the quality of what you know, not quantity.
  9. sambosteve is offline
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    Stillness is death

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2014 12:22pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Villain View Post
    Toe holds twist neither ankle nor knee. They hyperextend the joint, as opposed to over-rotating it. Hence being a straight leg lock. On the other hand, when you put some torque into it and start turning the foot instead of using the simple figure four grip, it targets just the knee with a twisting lock, with a straight ankle attack at the ankle.
    .

    Ahhh...I beg to differ. Toe holds can be done to act as a straight ankle lock (but those are not the best variants). They are indeed intended to be a twisting lock of the ankle. A good toehold with good leg control does not attack the knee in the same way a heel hook does for example. In fact, just about every toehold injury I have ever seen is an ankle injury (over rotation), not a knee injury. Kind of shocked to see you advocate the opposite. The best toeholds provide torque on the ankle.
    One of the best Bullshido investigations ever written: http://www.bullshido.org/David_Kujawski_Investigation

    "disgruntled ex student who couldn't hack training with Dave and his material and opted out (could be called pussied out) of training to go to Sambo" - Mor Sao
  10. The Villain is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2014 10:37pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just lost an ankle lock battle a few months ago where the guy popped it solid. I felt the figure four grip do the trick. The rotation was used to cut a nice angle, but I didn't feel any twisting damage. Just a straight pop akin to achilles.
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