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  1. blackmonk is online now
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2014 11:34am

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    stalling or standing up in judo/sambo

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Those of us that are jacket wrestlers, BJJ aside, are fully aware of this stalling position pictured above... Either a stiff, lifeless log like in the the picture, or sometimes a tight turtle position.

    While this is great for the ruleset, it is obviously a bad habit to get into for any other combat sports. I think that going to all-fours is an equally viable strategy as pulling guard, but it has to be followed with standing up and escaping, or a reversal.

    With wrestling, it's relatively well-explored. We know all the escapes and reversals. With sambo and judo, however, I have yet to find a real, comprehensive philosophy on escaping and reversing from there... Particularly on the topic of returning to a standing position. Does anyone have anything?

    I have asked some of the best sambo and judo players that I know, from various parts of the world, and almost invariably they say "Oh, that's tricky."
  2. CrackFox is offline
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    You have to work the look.

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2014 11:52am

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll admit to turtling loads when I'm doing judo, but I always look to get to my knees and then sit out or establish guard. If I manage either of these, I'm going to take at least one stab at an attack before mate gets called. I'd only ever try to stand up as a way of getting out of a sub.

    Quite a lot of my wins on the ground have come from first escaping out of a turtle. I think a lot of people don't expect you to re-attack them once they get to that stage.
  3. blackmonk is online now
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2014 11:57am

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't have any problems sitting out with the jacket on, or at least very rarely...

    But I have a hell of a time trying to get anywhere beyond that.
  4. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/10/2014 12:07pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    But I have a hell of a time trying to get anywhere beyond that.
    Beats being at the bottom of the turtle waiting for the ref to save you anyway.

    I have to admit I much prefer trying to get guard. If I sit out it's usually because my opponent has messed up big time, and let me trap an arm. Never done this in competition though, just relative noobs in class. Could probably have done anything in those situations though and made it work.
  5. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2014 12:14pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	050.jpg 
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ID:	15791

    Those of us that are jacket wrestlers, BJJ aside, are fully aware of this stalling position pictured above... Either a stiff, lifeless log like in the the picture, or sometimes a tight turtle position.

    While this is great for the ruleset, it is obviously a bad habit to get into for any other combat sports. I think that going to all-fours is an equally viable strategy as pulling guard, but it has to be followed with standing up and escaping, or a reversal.

    With wrestling, it's relatively well-explored. We know all the escapes and reversals. With sambo and judo, however, I have yet to find a real, comprehensive philosophy on escaping and reversing from there... Particularly on the topic of returning to a standing position. Does anyone have anything?

    I have asked some of the best sambo and judo players that I know, from various parts of the world, and almost invariably they say "Oh, that's tricky."
    I do not have a comprehensive methodology. The methods I learned for reversals have, from my experience with wrestlers, come from wrestling (it seems to me...as have some turnovers used from on top, but adapted to the jacket/pants).

    What I was taught was to not let your opponent get behind you (when turtled...I was admonished that the flat out position was something to avoid). So, I always keep my head towards him, and stay active with reacting to any attempts at control or attack, and look for an opening to sit to guard or move out and attack or stand up.

    Judoka do not spend a lot of time nowadays (that I can see at least) in learning how to keep the guy in turtle under control. We spent a lot of time on that, and I've had many coaches and at many clinics spend time on it in years past, but that was when more time in ne waza was allowed as well.

    In terms of modern competition, it is easier to stand up (in Judo), as you only have to get both hands off of the tatami and get off your knees to get a restart, even if the guy is on your back or in the middle of a sub. So we train to keep the head towards the opponent, and feel/look for weaknesses in control to get to a "standing" position and get a restart.

    I did have access to a couple of judo books at one time that had attacks/reversals from turtle illustrated and explained...I want to say they were by Okano, but are out of print now? It wasn't a comprehensive philosophy, but did have useable techniques.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2014 12:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Beats being at the bottom of the turtle waiting for the ref to save you anyway.

    I have to admit I much prefer trying to get guard. If I sit out it's usually because my opponent has messed up big time, and let me trap an arm. Never done this in competition though, just relative noobs in class. Could probably have done anything in those situations though and made it work.
    I was always pretty cautions about sitting out as well. Against a skilled opponent (those are the only ones that matter), it can be pretty risky to initiate a scramble from bottom. A good judoka will stay stuck to you and not give any space, or may well try to trick you by loosening up a bit as bait...and then pouncing when you enter the trap.

    A good drill we used to do was have one guy turtle, the other stay on top. The object was for the guy on bottom to get up/away and onto his feet or reverse somehow. You can restrict it to standing up, recovering guard, whatever. The guy on top was to keep the guy on bottom on bottom.

    We spent fucking hours doing that between the time I was a brown belt (sankyu) and shodan.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2014 12:26pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    I don't have any problems sitting out with the jacket on, or at least very rarely...

    But I have a hell of a time trying to get anywhere beyond that.
    Well, if you can sit out you can at least try to get on their back or gain control somehow, right?

    This is basic, but latch onto something and don't let go...sleeve, collar, pants leg, something, focus control there and move on to an attack or position improvement of your own.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. blackmonk is online now
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2014 12:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Turning to face them is something I see a lot in higher-level sambo matches. The obvious application, I suppose, is being able to see your opponent for a takedown.
  9. blackmonk is online now
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2014 4:10pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Has anyone ever successfully used a Peterson Roll with the jacket on? A training partner of mine says he is able to make it work pretty well, although I have never seen him do it in sparring.
  10. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2014 4:16pm

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i turtle way too much for my own good (this became especially apparent when i spent 2 weeks at marcelo garcia's gym) so now in class i will start a 5 second countdown to when i have to get out of turtle by either re-guarding or reversing uke. sometimes it gets me pinned, but it's better than practicing stalling.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
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