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  1. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 1:25am

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     Style: 柔術

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am the last person to be defending the IBJJF ruleset. I was just giving perspective regarding the technique under the ruleset it was obviously designed for. You can get away with a lot of things when you don't fear the reap. In fact putting yourself into a Heel Hook position to "escape" a straight ankle is very common under the ruleset.

    As someone that has won by foot lock in both rulesets that allow reaping and IBJJF, I just play different foot lock games for each. There are effective foot lock games out there that don't involve reaping.

    For example:

    http://www.legalleglocks.com/
  2. sambosteve is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 3:19am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    I am the last person to be defending the IBJJF ruleset. I was just giving perspective regarding the technique under the ruleset it was obviously designed for. You can get away with a lot of things when you don't fear the reap. In fact putting yourself into a Heel Hook position to "escape" a straight ankle is very common under the ruleset.

    As someone that has won by foot lock in both rulesets that allow reaping and IBJJF, I just play different foot lock games for each. There are effective foot lock games out there that don't involve reaping.

    For example:

    http://www.legalleglocks.com/
    I dont think you are defending IBJJF rules.

    I also know that site. It is good.

    Just to clarify, I don't think all foot locks are reap centric, but the best ones are. I doubt anyone would debate that. Nevertheless, there are several that are not that still fit within good leg/hip control principles. Those are what we use in IBJJF rules events if the opporrunity arises. But, the nature of the rules generally has us doing different things. If IBJJF was the be all end all for us I might care more ;)
    One of the best Bullshido investigations ever written: http://www.bullshido.org/David_Kujawski_Investigation

    "disgruntled ex student who couldn't hack training with Dave and his material and opted out (could be called pussied out) of training to go to Sambo" - Mor Sao
  3. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 4:58am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Paulo Miyao got fourth at the ADCC just now playing a game centred around the berimbolo inversion, it's clearly not that easy to counter just because you're allowed to reap.
  4. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 9:41am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Paulo Miyao got fourth at the ADCC just now playing a game centred around the berimbolo inversion, it's clearly not that easy to counter just because you're allowed to reap.
    First it was his brother that got 4th at ADCC. Second the Miyaos play a modified berimbolo game for No-Gi that involves coming underneath the legs into a crab ride position hiding the legs from their opponent. I've run into 1 guy that trained with them for a while, the crab ride in a completely different animal that's very difficult to counter.
  5. sambosteve is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 10:23am

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Paulo Miyao got fourth at the ADCC just now playing a game centred around the berimbolo inversion, it's clearly not that easy to counter just because you're allowed to reap.
    I would have to watch his matches (well, his brother's), but maybe if he didn't, he would have come in first...LOL. Did he use it to escape/counter any leg attacks and were those leg attacks credible? Because otherwise there is no relevance to this particular discussion.

    Seriously, the point of my OP is not that inverted sucks or there is never any use for it. My point was about the specific video I posted where the initial attack was very poor, therefore the instructor could pull off an unsound leg lock counter that would not work had the attacker had good leg position and control in the first place.

    Most importantly, as mentioned earlier as well by others here as well, one of my kep points is that the practice of allowing fundamentally bad habits (in this case regarding leg attacks) to arise simply because the rules protects one from otherwise natural negative consequences is a serious concern.

    What did you think of the video I posted?
    One of the best Bullshido investigations ever written: http://www.bullshido.org/David_Kujawski_Investigation

    "disgruntled ex student who couldn't hack training with Dave and his material and opted out (could be called pussied out) of training to go to Sambo" - Mor Sao
  6. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 11:16am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Joao indeed, my mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by sambosteve View Post
    I would have to watch his matches (well, his brother's), but maybe if he didn't, he would have come in first...LOL. Did he use it to escape/counter any leg attacks and were those leg attacks credible? Because otherwise there is no relevance to this particular discussion.
    No one had a serious attempt at one vs. his inversions including Rafael Mendes who one could cautiously state knows how do heel hook. He also finished two matches with leg attacks himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by sambosteve View Post
    Seriously, the point of my OP is not that inverted sucks or there is never any use for it. My point was about the specific video I posted where the initial attack was very poor, therefore the instructor could pull off an unsound leg lock counter that would not work had the attacker had good leg position and control in the first place.

    Most importantly, as mentioned earlier as well by others here as well, one of my kep points is that the practice of allowing fundamentally bad habits (in this case regarding leg attacks) to arise simply because the rules protects one from otherwise natural negative consequences is a serious concern.

    What did you think of the video I posted?
    I think that pointing out that a rule-set specific video, in which he repeatedly mentions the rule-set-specificity of it, is a poor target for this particular rant. That situation does pretty often come up in IBJJF rules and I've seen that position both advocated for, and used well, by top level guys.
    Last edited by PointyShinyBurn; 1/07/2014 11:22am at .
  7. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 11:23am

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This a great analysis on using the crab ride with the Berimbolo:

    Last edited by Plasma; 1/07/2014 11:26am at .
  8. Zapruder is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 2:48pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!


    OOOOO! That first submission he shows is the same one I showed at Monolith last time I was there! I was setting it up from my favorite knee compression leglock which is also a VERY high percentage counter to the berimbolo.
    Last edited by Zapruder; 1/07/2014 3:03pm at .
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  9. sambosteve is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 5:07pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Joao indeed, my mistake.
    No one had a serious attempt at one vs. his inversions including Rafael Mendes who one could cautiously state knows how do heel hook. He also finished two matches with leg attacks himself.
    I think that pointing out that a rule-set specific video, in which he repeatedly mentions the rule-set-specificity of it, is a poor target for this particular rant. That situation does pretty often come up in IBJJF rules and I've seen that position both advocated for, and used well, by top level guys.
    Actually it is a perfect video since I am ranting about how catering to such rules builds bad habits. That is exactly what that video is an example of. An unsound attack and unsound defense based on unsound attack...unsound outside of the very limited IBJJF rules.

    Zapruder, yes, there is a nice knee compression there. He gives it up.
    One of the best Bullshido investigations ever written: http://www.bullshido.org/David_Kujawski_Investigation

    "disgruntled ex student who couldn't hack training with Dave and his material and opted out (could be called pussied out) of training to go to Sambo" - Mor Sao
  10. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 5:28pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by sambosteve View Post
    Actually it is a perfect video since I am ranting about how catering to such rules builds bad habits. That is exactly what that video is an example of. An unsound attack and unsound defense based on unsound attack...unsound outside of the very limited IBJJF rules.
    It's not his suggestion for step 1 of the blue belt curriculum, people who want to win high level competitions are often going to have rule-set specific stuff. When your students enter SAMBO competitions do suggest they maybe try not to land on their back because it gives up points, or do you suggest picture-perfect break-falls because that would be safer on concrete?
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