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  1. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2013 2:29pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    If 15,000 troops isn't much and its what we keep in many other places, then how impressive a strategic presence is that?

    I'm all for the Hearts and Minds approach instead of carpet bombing, but isn't that undercut by the presence of armed military occupation? You also said that the more troops we remove, the fewer at risk and it stops being a war and looks more like we're supporting the local government. So isn't the best way to show our support for the locals to pull military out completely and leave only civilian advisors?

    And how are we more successful than the Russians? Because we lost fewer soldiers? I ask again, what has our country gained other than the "strategic presence" for which we have no demonstrable use? I don't think this is all worth the billions we've spent.

    15,000 is plenty of stretegic presence. There are only a handful of governments in the world we couldn't defeat handily with 15,000 of our troops and the resources they can bring to bear.

    How were we more successful than the Russians? Surely you jest. We made Afghanistan our bitch militarily, then helped the group of Afghanis we chose not to blow to smithereens install a new and far less psychotic government.
  2. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2013 2:32pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    No, I'm bringing up Afghanistan because I read an article today saying its the most unpopular war ever. I'm not taking an anti-military stance. That would actually be an easier argument, but one I don't support. I support keeping U.S. military presence in places where it will do some demonstrable good, for us or for them. Like in Turkey, for instance. I just don't see that the cost is worth the return in Afghanistan. And there's also a big difference beween Afg. and Okinawa or Malta, or other places where we're not being shot at.

    And I also think that if we're going to declare war, it should be an official act by our representatives in Congress.

    It does do demonstrable good to have our troops in Afghanistan. If nothing else, it serves as a reminder to a bunch of crazy ass Muslims that we will stomp a mudhole in their asses if they don't act right. That alone is worth the price of admission.
  3. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2013 2:53pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    How were we more successful than the Russians? Surely you jest. We made Afghanistan our bitch militarily, then helped the group of Afghanis we chose not to blow to smithereens install a new and far less psychotic government.
    Well, their psychosis isn't all better. From a 11/22/13 Congressional Research Service Document:

    https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21922.pdf

    "[The government remains weak and rampant with corruption. . . . Several major figures—some close to Karzai and others opposed—have registered to run for president; many of their slates include faction leaders long accused of human rights
    abuses. . . . Fraud in two successive elections (for president in 2009 and parliament in 2010) was extensively documented . . . . Fears about the election process are fanned by the scant progress in reducing widespread nepotism and other forms of corruption. . . However, an increase in the influence of faction leaders could produce even more corruption, arbitrary administration of justice, and human rights abuses . . . . President Karzai is appealing to nationalist sentiment to attract Taliban support to rejoin Afghan politics, but Afghan civil society activists, particularly women’s groups, assert that a full reintegration of the Taliban into Afghan politics could reverse some of the human and women’s rights gains since 2001. . .

    These people got long-term problems. No wonder the Russians left, even after investing a lot more than we have, so far. I'm not quarreling with the principles behind our presence in Afg., I'm saying this place is a tar baby and ain't worth the trouble.
    “A nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its laws made by cowards and its wars fought by fools.” ― Thucydides
  4. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2013 3:07pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    It does do demonstrable good to have our troops in Afghanistan. If nothing else, it serves as a reminder to a bunch of crazy ass Muslims that we will stomp a mudhole in their asses if they don't act right. That alone is worth the price of admission.
    I wish it were that easy. But we're dealing with people who are ready to blow themselves up when their leaders say so. They think they're going to get 70 virgins in heaven (I don't want to imagine what the women get). I'm thinking we need to conserve our resources and pick our battles carefully.
    Last edited by CapnMunchh; 12/30/2013 3:12pm at .
    “A nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its laws made by cowards and its wars fought by fools.” ― Thucydides
  5. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2013 3:15pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    If 15,000 troops isn't much and its what we keep in many other places, then how impressive a strategic presence is that?
    Airfields, communications, intel. Lower visibility, and less exposure to enemy forces means fewer casualties. That is why it's a strategic plan, it's designed to be long term and low overhead.

    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    I'm all for the Hearts and Minds approach instead of carpet bombing, but isn't that undercut by the presence of armed military occupation? You also said that the more troops we remove, the fewer at risk and it stops being a war and looks more like we're supporting the local government. So isn't the best way to show our support for the locals to pull military out completely and leave only civilian advisers?
    Civilian advisers aren't airfields, communications, or intel.

    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    And how are we more successful than the Russians? Because we lost fewer soldiers? I ask again, what has our country gained other than the "strategic presence" for which we have no demonstrable use? I don't think this is all worth the billions we've spent.
    We are more successful than the Russians because our country's military operations haven't just ensured the doom of the Union. Thankfully, capitalism clearly wins over communism when it comes to the balance sheet, so far.

    I can dig up the link network of Al Qaeda, and how many hundreds of hardcore Al Qaeda operatives and leaders and thousands of their die hard affiliates that have been taken out by conventional troop in part and but also special operations teams that could not operate long term in such an area without the overlying ground and air support structure.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 12/30/2013 3:20pm at .
  6. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    There isn't even any oil in Afghanistan.
    Lots of oil planned on, it will be in a big pipe. http://leejohnbarnes.blogspot.com/20...s-and-oil.html and check out the Silk Road Strategy Act, imo a neo-colonial looting, business as usual.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  7. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2013 3:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Airfields, communications, intel. Lower visibility, and less exposure to enemy forces means fewer casualties. That is why it's a strategic plan, it's designed to be long term and low overhead.



    Civilian advisers aren't airfields, communications, or intel.



    We are more successful than the Russians because our country's military operations haven't just ensured the doom of the Union. Thankfully, capitalism clearly wins over communism when it comes to the balance sheet, so far.

    I can dig up the link network of Al Qaeda, and how many hundreds of hardcore Al Qaeda operatives and leaders and thousands of their die hard affiliates that have been taken out by conventional troop in part and but also special operations teams that could not operate long term in such an area without the overlying ground and air support structure.
    Even assuming occupation helped to take out some Al Queda, which was improvement over what the Russians accomplished, I'll still give the same answer I gave to Devil:

    https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21922.pdf

    Its not going to get better. The Afghani people have got to solve their own problems, like we all do, before they can benefit from the privilege of being supported as a nation by the U.S. and other free democracies. Its a tar baby and it ain't worth it.
    “A nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its laws made by cowards and its wars fought by fools.” ― Thucydides
  8. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2013 3:37pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    Lots of oil planned on, it will be in a big pipe. http://leejohnbarnes.blogspot.com/20...s-and-oil.html and check out the Silk Road Strategy Act, imo a neo-colonial looting, business as usual.
    Well, now we're talking. I guess I should have done more research. Business as usual allright.

    Edit: could go well or could go badly for the Afghani people. Its really up to their leaders.
    Last edited by CapnMunchh; 12/30/2013 3:41pm at .
    “A nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its laws made by cowards and its wars fought by fools.” ― Thucydides
  9. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2013 3:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Well, their psychosis isn't all better. From a 11/22/13 Congressional Research Service Document:

    https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21922.pdf

    "[The government remains weak and rampant with corruption. . . . Several major figures—some close to Karzai and others opposed—have registered to run for president; many of their slates include faction leaders long accused of human rights
    abuses. . . . Fraud in two successive elections (for president in 2009 and parliament in 2010) was extensively documented . . . . Fears about the election process are fanned by the scant progress in reducing widespread nepotism and other forms of corruption. . . However, an increase in the influence of faction leaders could produce even more corruption, arbitrary administration of justice, and human rights abuses . . . . President Karzai is appealing to nationalist sentiment to attract Taliban support to rejoin Afghan politics, but Afghan civil society activists, particularly women’s groups, assert that a full reintegration of the Taliban into Afghan politics could reverse some of the human and women’s rights gains since 2001. . .

    These people got long-term problems. No wonder the Russians left, even after investing a lot more than we have, so far. I'm not quarreling with the principles behind our presence in Afg., I'm saying this place is a tar baby and ain't worth the trouble.

    Meh, despite all the talk about the Afghanis choosing their own government, guiding their own destinies, blah, blah, blah.....they are our bitches and have to do what we tell them. Afghanistan and Iraq give us good footholds from which to launch the inevitable war against Islam, which everyone knows isn't compatible with western civilization.

    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    I wish it were that easy. But we're dealing with people who are ready to blow themselves up when their leaders say so. They think they're going to get 70 virgins in heaven (I don't want to imagine what the women get). I'm thinking we need to conserve our resources and pick our battles carefully.
    Crushing Islam is a battle worth having.
  10. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2013 3:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Even assuming occupation helped to take out some Al Queda, which was improvement over what the Russians accomplished, I'll still give the same answer I gave to Devil:

    https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21922.pdf

    Its not going to get better. The Afghani people have got to solve their own problems, like we all do, before they can benefit from the privilege of being supported as a nation by the U.S. and other free democracies. Its a tar baby and it ain't worth it.
    Afghanistan's insurgency helped to destabilize our greatest rival superpower. Al Qaeda entrenched there for that reason, they were already riding high on the heels of beating back Soviet tanks, MiGs, and Hind gunships, it was a perfect place to operate out of.

    It is embarrassing that we didn't clean up and take care of that place before 9/11, having paid and provided weapons to create the mess, after the Soviets pulled out. The US spared the rod in Afghanistan.

    Whether Afghanistan takes another 100 or 1000 years to improve, the US owes it to Afghanistan to keep a strong, secure presence there or it would revert to its pre-9/11 status pretty quickly as a haven for covert terrorist activities. Most Afghanis are not radicals. Most Afghanis would not throw acid in a girls eyes because she wanted to go to school, or plan the mass murder of innocents.

    Yep I said that. The US actually owes ($$$) to it Afghanistan to remain there.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 12/30/2013 4:10pm at .
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