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  1. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2013 7:31pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    He still has the undergrip so his lapel position is stronger. If you can draw his left sleeve into your side of the space then that will kill a lot of his ability to attack. It's kind of a 50/50 situation at that point.

    If you hook your left elbow over and inside of his right elbow, then you have more of an advantage and could attack left or right. For example, an right Ippon Seoi Nage from your left cross grip or left sided throws. A lot depends on if you can get your elbow inside and trap his right arm, or at least get your elbow down and set. doing that will draw you in closer as well.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2013 7:44pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    The above picture isn't a great example of gripping at all... Just a simple visual representation of the cross-grip. That's it.

    BKR - I like the idea of working into sode... I've been hitting osoto gari a lot lately, and about 15% of that has been from a sode grip, so I need to start looking for that.

    Aaron - Are you talking about collapsing their elbow inward, as well? Igor was showing a seoi nage that you can throw under the cross-grip, and I have tried it, but I never have been able to rotate through enough to elevate uke.

    When I spar with Ori and I stay on cross-grip for too long, it feels like he is trapping both arms of mine across my body, and then coming across with an otoshi step. Depending on how I'm standing dictates how I get thrown. He's literally the only person that is able to throw me with cross-grip right now, and I'm working on solving that puzzle. I threw him once during practice the other day with a yoko guruma off the Russian tie... Small victories.
    One key thing here is that if your opponent has sleeve control (he has your sleeve in his half of the space, and is keeping your hand off of his lapel...your right hand if you are a righty), then you are going to have a difficult time doing much offense. Add in the cross grip, and he has good control of the right side of your body. Generating offense at that point on your part will be difficult, even though you can do leg picks, kata guruma, and all the fun stuff us poor IJF controlled judoka cannnot.

    To kinda state the obvious, if you allow a skilled opponent to dominate the gripping, (as Ori sounds like), you odds of getting thrown go way up. Sometimes you can find a way around it, to use their gripping against them, or find some crevice to fit yourself into and make an attack. But mostly, you need to avoid being outgripped, which involves as you are asking about, countergripping without grip cutting.

    I'll say again, if he has your sleeve in his half of the space, and is controlling your sleeve, you need to address that issue somehow. Otherwise it's a tough row to hoe.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2013 7:53pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Ok, I'm with you on that. I was just thinking about driving their hand toward their sweet, sweet balls.

    Today, I was working on trying to duplicate that arm trap thing I was talking about, by cross-gripping over their cross-grip, and then pulling hard on that same side sleeve... Like I'm drawing a bow. Definitely shut down their attacks, as far as I could tell, but I couldn't find an effective attack of my own, either.
    If this is what I think it is, it is a fairly standard method of dealing with an opposite grip situation (in Judo at least).

    You basically hook over their elbow with yours, drive your elbow down then up and to the outside a little. You can trap their arm that way against your chest and stand them on their toes.

    Normally, I would prefer to have cut their grip of of my lapel first, as it's easier to do if their grip is lower on your lapel. I"m short, but if you are same height or a little taller it is easier to do.

    Aaron was describing basically the same thing.

    Again, if he still has your sleeve under control, offense is difficult for you still.

    If you are in a left vs right situation (he has the RH cross grip, you hook inside), and you are in a left stance, you might be able to pull off a De Ashi Barai or Kosoto Gari of some sort, but again, if you sleeve is extended, not much works.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2014 12:12pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm predominantly a lefty fighter.

    I was able to counter-grip and throw a few times yesterday... They would get the cross-grip with their right, and I would grip over the top with my left, digging my elbow over and around to trap their arm. Then I pulled their left sleeve to my chest. Pulled forward a few times to get them stumbling, and then an easy ashi guruma or tai otoshi.

    Unrelated, I was also baiting for them to take my sleeve with a right cross-grip, and when they would grab that sleeve or armpit, I would reach over with my left for the makikomi and hit some sick osoto makikomis.

    Got a few uchi mata from a headlock like that, also, which is something I've been using to throw guys that aren't afraid to fall face-first to defend the uchi mata, or they try to handspring out of it. This is in the event that I can't capture the other sleeve. If I take a headlock instead of a HCG or lapel, I can force their head past the plane of their arm during the descent, which nullifies anything that they do with the free arm.
  5. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2014 1:27pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    I'm predominantly a lefty fighter.

    I was able to counter-grip and throw a few times yesterday... They would get the cross-grip with their right, and I would grip over the top with my left, digging my elbow over and around to trap their arm. Then I pulled their left sleeve to my chest. Pulled forward a few times to get them stumbling, and then an easy ashi guruma or tai otoshi.

    Unrelated, I was also baiting for them to take my sleeve with a right cross-grip, and when they would grab that sleeve or armpit, I would reach over with my left for the makikomi and hit some sick osoto makikomis.

    Got a few uchi mata from a headlock like that, also, which is something I've been using to throw guys that aren't afraid to fall face-first to defend the uchi mata, or they try to handspring out of it. This is in the event that I can't capture the other sleeve. If I take a headlock instead of a HCG or lapel, I can force their head past the plane of their arm during the descent, which nullifies anything that they do with the free arm.
    Sounds like you have it worked out pretty well. Being a lefty is a a big advantage many times, as most guys are used to working against other righties. So their RH cross grip almost works to your advantage once you get that elbow inside and their arm trapped. Lefties have to deal with righties most of the time, so they get to be experts at it.

    To me, the cross grip is best for a surprise type attack, to be taken quickly and then used quickly with movement and then throw attempt rather than a static position to keep. And that was when it was perfectly legal to get it and hold it in Judo (unlike now).

    Love the reference to avoiding the Uchi Mata by taking it on the face...
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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