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  1. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/27/2013 5:42pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Throwing through the cross-grip

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    Grip breaks aside, how do you guys deal with the cross-grip? One of my main training partners right now hits an ashi guruma-ish, tai otoshi-ish throw when I sit with a cross-grip on him for too long... Occasionally, it looks like an osoto gari, also. I do not know how he sets it up, however.

    "Ask your coach" is not an acceptable response. Let's do this internet thing and share ideas.
  2. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2013 6:45pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Name:  7436.JPG
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    Grip breaks aside, how do you guys deal with the cross-grip? One of my main training partners right now hits an ashi guruma-ish, tai otoshi-ish throw when I sit with a cross-grip on him for too long... Occasionally, it looks like an osoto gari, also. I do not know how he sets it up, however.

    "Ask your coach" is not an acceptable response. Let's do this internet thing and share ideas.
    OK. No grip breaks in the discussion.

    First off, is training partner gripping you as shown in the photo you posted (presumably tori would be the guy on our left), and do you as (unwilling) uke hold him as the guy on the right in the photo.

    Because if so, the guy on the left has a crappy grip that leaves him wide open for all sorts of mayhem, grip breaks or not. The guy on the right is clueless as well, apparently.

    The other thing: Do you normally use a RH sleeve and lapel grip or left (lefty or righty), and what does this specific person use as his preferred grip (as in lefty or righty).

    Assuming the above is true...
    1.) Guy on right can neutralize the cross grip by under-gripping the left lapel with his right hand, keeping his elbow down. You can then use your right arm (lapel grip) to maintain/create/or close distance as necessary to attack or defend. The sleeve hand you can circle over his wrist and grip sleeve from underneath. Draw your sleeve hand towards you (keep it in your half of the space between you).

    At that point, you will have neutralized the cross grip more or less, for that instant at least, and you can attack him with some advantage from your superior grip.

    Alternatively, the guy on (our) right can grip under the other guy's left elbow, change the sleeve grip as above (although you don't necessarily have to), and try a Sode Tsurikomi Goshi or similar type of hip throw to the right. If the other guy has his elbow down, though, that won't work.


    Nothing lasts forever of course !

    If you expand to cutting/re-gripping, more options open up.
    For example, cut sleeve grip and go for a standing arm bar Waki Gatame) on his overextended left arm (whichever arm is the lapel cross-grip). If you are really adventurous, a jumping entry to Juji Gatame is a possibility. Neither of those options will win you friends or positively influence people, though.

    I used the cross grip extensively back in the 80s and 90s, and before the crappy rule changes. It is versatile in that you can isolate one side of uke body (when I started you could cross grip the entire match, then it went to the 5 second rule, now you have to attack "immediately". I threw Tai Otoshi, Seoi Nage, leg across Seoi Nage, Seoi Otoshi (to both knees), and Kouchi Gari with a lot of success. The downside is that you lose control of the other side of uke body, so they can dodge/block/turn out of throw attempts more easily (if the guy knows what he is doing). I used a lot of bounce/bob types of movement and circling to create opportunity for an entry.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. Aaron Fields is offline
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    One of Seattle's Bravest

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2013 11:10pm


     Style: Cambo/jujutsu/judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of the methods that I use is to, I bring my grip up and under the "cross-hand." I try and get my forearm proximal of their cross-gripped elbow, creating a bit of a lever as I drive my arm up and under their elbow. I move my shoulder, by rotating my not crossbripped side away, so their crossgrip is not located right where they want it.

    (When folks grip my collar I am much less worried than when they grip my epaulett, or establish a pocket grip on that seam.)

    In addition my sleeve gripped hand I roll from the outside establish a top grip on their sleeve and drive the hand in and towards their balls.
  4. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/27/2013 11:50pm


     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why won't a whole range of drop throws work?
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
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  5. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2013 1:16am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I assume you aren't talking IJF rules if you are hanging out there "too long." When I switched to Jiu Jitsu from Judo, I started using this grip a lot more especially to setup 1LX guard.

    I know you said no grip breaks, but that is always my number 1. I grip break straight into an arm drag or Russian usually looking for the back, a single leg or an over the back grip.

    Failing that I'll drop under for a Sutemi Waza or go straight for the armbar if it is there. You don't need to do a flying Juji Gatame. Just secure the cross arm against your chest, drop like you we going for a Tomoe Nage, but instead swing into the armbar. Even if you miss the armbar you still have the sleeve grip and you use that to play a multitude of open guards.
    Last edited by Plasma; 12/28/2013 2:20am at .
  6. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2013 5:50am

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The above picture isn't a great example of gripping at all... Just a simple visual representation of the cross-grip. That's it.

    BKR - I like the idea of working into sode... I've been hitting osoto gari a lot lately, and about 15% of that has been from a sode grip, so I need to start looking for that.

    Aaron - Are you talking about collapsing their elbow inward, as well? Igor was showing a seoi nage that you can throw under the cross-grip, and I have tried it, but I never have been able to rotate through enough to elevate uke.

    When I spar with Ori and I stay on cross-grip for too long, it feels like he is trapping both arms of mine across my body, and then coming across with an otoshi step. Depending on how I'm standing dictates how I get thrown. He's literally the only person that is able to throw me with cross-grip right now, and I'm working on solving that puzzle. I threw him once during practice the other day with a yoko guruma off the Russian tie... Small victories.
  7. Aaron Fields is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2013 1:06pm


     Style: Cambo/jujutsu/judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No I actually lever their elbow up, which moves the grip more distal and they loose their power. Sometimes depending upon how the guy is moving it will lift and rotate their elbow out.
  8. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2013 2:44pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, I'm with you on that. I was just thinking about driving their hand toward their sweet, sweet balls.

    Today, I was working on trying to duplicate that arm trap thing I was talking about, by cross-gripping over their cross-grip, and then pulling hard on that same side sleeve... Like I'm drawing a bow. Definitely shut down their attacks, as far as I could tell, but I couldn't find an effective attack of my own, either.
  9. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2013 7:41pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Picture from opponent's perspective. Pictured player is cross-gripping with right hand. POV player is cross-gripping over the top, and then also capturing the pictured player's left sleeve.

    This is what a training partner seems to be doing to me, although I don't yet understand how he is trapping my arms.
  10. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2013 7:49pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Click image for larger version. 

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