I was confused myself. I think he meant this:
Originally Posted by alex
Not trolling, actually. I know squat about boxing, but I DO know that RJJ has won more boxing titles than I've had hot dinners, so I just assumed that counted for something and that even in his ripe old age he'd be able to splat somebody like Diaz.
Holy **** you did it. You rendered Holy Moment speechless.
I wasn't paying attention to the conversation, I just thought youse guys would like to see a picture of Silva beginning his recovery.
Originally Posted by ghost55
In regards to Shawarma's post, though, I don't think he literally meant Jones is a phenom today. My assumption is that by "modern boxing," he just meant within the last twenty years. Some people describe the present era of boxing as having started in 1988 with the advent of pay-per-view.
I can also understand his point of view (Which doesn't necessarily mean I agree with it). Only taking into account the fact that Jones has spent the last quarter-century solely competing in boxing with a very high level of success, you could easily say Jones has the edge over an MMA-puncher like Diaz despite the significant disparity in age and cumulative injuries. However, like Shawarma, I haven't seen any of Jones' recent fights so I can't really make the call. It's my assumption he's very badly washed up, but I'm inclined to believe he's not as bad in the grand scheme of things as people make him out to be. If you're a boxing fan and you're watching Jones today, obviously you're going to contrast him with the borderline superhuman he used to be.
Funny to note, Ralph Gracie challenged RJJ to to an MMA fight back in the 90's.
The things that made Roy a devastating fighter, are things that decline with age. He hasn't retained the fearsomeness of his youth.
Diaz doesn't have endless power, but does have bottomless cardio and a hard head. It would be a competitive fight now IMO, but back in Roy's heyday, a very short ugly beating.
Pretty much this. He had enough talent to break a lot of the conventional "rules" of boxing and get away with it when he was younger. He has readjusted his style a little in his older age to help make up for it, but hes still nowhere near the fighter he used to be.
Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja
That being said, even a far past his prime Roy Jones is still a good boxer. And while Nick Diaz has a ridiculous chin and cardio, as well as being one of the few MMA fighters who can consistently throw punches in bunches, his footwork is mediocre even by MMA standards and he doesn't prioritize defense as much as he should.
My guess is that Jones would use this to his advantage by moving in and out with hard shots. Diaz is a tough son of a gun, so I don't know if a finish would happen. But I think it would be a pretty one sided decision, at the very least.
Sometimes I wonder if I could take Muhammad Ali or Leon Spinks in their present conditions. It would be totally awesome if they kicked my ass.
It takes a very special combination of physical attributes and skills for a fighter to be successful past his prime. Some get better with age, like Randy Couture and Jersey Joe Walcott, while others decline but still retain enough of what they used to have to be dangerous, like George Foreman (Although he did improve his ability to keep from gassing by learning how to stay calm and not blow his wad). For the most part, I think fighters in the latter group had to have a great deal of power and durability when they were younger in order to survive. Brute strength diminishes more slowly than speed or coordination, while durability is pretty much mandatory to compensate for the lack of reflexes and agility (Foreman used a cross-arm defense for extra protection because he knew he wasn't going to nail guys with fast combinations anymore). It was obvious Father Time had caught up to Randy Couture for real when he started showing up to fights cock diesel. He needed the extra muscle to make up for all the other aspects of his physicality that were finally eroding.
Here are some good old fighters:
Here are some bad old fighters:
Brian Yates: 13-86-3
John Carlo: 0-0-0
I'd be very surprised if Diaz didn't heavily modify his footwork/stance for a boxing bout.
Originally Posted by karma2343
His open stance is good for counters/takedown defence in the mma realm, but too open for boxing. He wouldn't have to do the Philly roll, but tightening up those elbows, and using more of a 3/4 rather than open facing stance would be likely.
The pawing lead hand he uses to come over the top wouldn't be as effective, as he wouldn't have the TD/guillotine option if someone came inside/under of it, in addition to being more difficult in 10oz gloves, so he'd possibly need to employ a different method of engagement.
RJJ has power, but his speed and tactical brilliance has faded somewhat with time. Diaz could push the pace, and use a lot of countering to baffle, rattle, and then tire Jones.
If I were a betting man, I'd have a small bet on Diaz.
Won't be as effective? It would be super effective to munch on a huge over right that was desined for those slopy slow to return jabs. RJJ won't think twice of going under with his head as there are no knees or guillotines as you mentioned. Diaz's boxing is **** man, really, the fact that he can take punches is the only reason we even talk about him now. He really can't box, he can punch in an MMA match, but he can't box.
Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja
So either he basically starts boxing much much much better or this is not an issue. Also, if we hypothesize that Diaz learns how to box, maybe RJJ drinks an elixir of youth (or steroids), gets fighting fit and continues to KO magnificently Diaz.
There are a few MMA fighters that exhibit good boxing in the MMA scene. Diaz is not one of them.
For example, consider Chuck liddel who was a ferocious puncher, good counterer and a skilled backwards moving fighter, but, he was not a boxer, he did not use the guard, nor did he relied enough on bobbing and weaving. He had a great chin and a powerful attack not hindered by putting up the guard and moving away from punches (or fear), he relied on finishing his guy before he himself got finished. Well, than came Rampage with some good proper boxing against Chuck's attack and "whooped his ass" twice, easy.
Not everybody that uses a lot of punching successfully in the octagon can actually box.