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  1. erezb is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2013 5:40am


     Style: Boxing,Kickboxing K1

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Hard sparring vs light for beginners

    Hi, we have a few new kids training, and some of it (training) falls on me.
    We box, and i wanted to open this subject of light vs heavy or hard sparring again, this time for beginners.
    I have noticed that hard sparring too early and often will weed out the week as they say and leave you with determined people that will progress nicely (usually).
    But, i think it is a mistake to forgo the timid, not just because it is a business and our club is not designed for high end competitive boxing, but also because i think some really gifted boxers/fighters can arise from those that needs more time to get accustomed to hard sparring.

    From my experience, even the most timid can get used to it if it is graduate enough. In the end someone that was not meant to be a fighter can actually box pretty well and spar hard with little emotional effect.

    I also think that to learn good technique and skip the rabbit punching phase right into actual boxing one needs plenty of light sparring in all it's versions.
    The down side of course is that inside the ring it is not light nor forgiving..and to be able to perform your technique under real stress u need to feel it, allot.

    I guess the quick answer will be to do both, but if you have twice a week with the kid, and he is not hard bent on actually competing what do you think should be the "right amount" when do you think you should introduce hard sparring? and generally what's your thoughts about this?
  2. jedtex88 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2013 7:33am


     Style: Jhoon Rhee Tae-Kwon-Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's going to be different from student to student. After a couple of light spars start sticking them every once in a while. Look to see how they reacts. If they seems to exhibit tenacity stick them more often. If not just ease them into it, maybe make that good stick a body shot for a while.
  3. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2013 9:23am

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    Yeah, I would take it on a kid by kid basis. I have two kids and I spar with both of them. One of them takes a beating and comes in for more. Matter of fact he gets more into it, the more intense the sparring. The other one is actually better. His techniques are a lot cleaner and his movement is better. But you pop him one time a little too hard and he starts crying and shuts down. So I have to spar with them differently. If I did both of them the same, one or the other wouldn't get anything out of it.

    Main thing I make sure I do is go full speed but very the intensity level. Either with padded sticks, focus mits, bigger gloves, kick/punch shields, or lighter punches. But full speed either way. I don't think that going slower helps them any, just makes them lazy. Also, keeping it fun.
    Combatives training log.

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  4. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2013 9:34am

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    I think the gradual approach is most effective.

    It's how they build such phenomenal sambo stylists overseas. A long, continuous process where the athlete is given progressively more difficult tasks, and thus both proficiency and confidence (which is most important) are built in a responsible manner.

    It's how we do it at my club, and we routinely bring home a high percentage of medals from sambo, judo, and catch tournaments.
  5. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2013 10:25am

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    I think the gradual approach is most effective.

    It's how they build such phenomenal sambo stylists overseas. A long, continuous process where the athlete is given progressively more difficult tasks, and thus both proficiency and confidence (which is most important) are built in a responsible manner.

    It's how we do it at my club, and we routinely bring home a high percentage of medals from sambo, judo, and catch tournaments.
    Quoted for truth. Coaching kids is fairly complex. Different stages of mental, physical, and emotional development demand different goals and strategies.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2013 1:12pm

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     Style: 血鷲

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OP: is it a purpose of your gym to "weed out the weak"...or is it to transform them into the mentally- and physically-strong (while also working to improve those who already are strong)?
  7. itwasntme is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2013 2:27pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    erezb, what sorts of strategies have you implemented with kids that have no self esteem (the kid who laughs when they get hit or do something wrong and makes it obvious they aren't really applying themselves) and who probably don't really want to be there (without telling their folks that their little Johnny just does not want to do this activity)?

    Are there methods that have worked more than others for you?

    Roughly how many of these children would you say that you've seen turn their attitude around and succeed?
    Start a training log!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    i really think that those who can't get their head around the bowing thing (because their angry sky daddy will punish them) don't deserve judo. life is full of choices, and if your bronze age superstitions are holding you back, so be it.
  8. erezb is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2013 10:23am


     Style: Boxing,Kickboxing K1

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    Quote Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
    erezb, what sorts of strategies have you implemented with kids that have no self esteem (the kid who laughs when they get hit or do something wrong and makes it obvious they aren't really applying themselves) and who probably don't really want to be there (without telling their folks that their little Johnny just does not want to do this activity)?

    Are there methods that have worked more than others for you?

    Roughly how many of these children would you say that you've seen turn their attitude around and succeed?
    Truthfully, i tell them not to waist my and their partner's time. This place is for people that want to be here. I tend to treat them as i would a grownup, they respond well to it. Their parents pay too much for them to **** around, and the other kid that suffers that behavior as well. But... i encountered that rarely as boxing is not something kids will do on a whim. Also because it is mixed, grownups and youngsters (14,15 and up) they tend to behave like the grownups. But, most don't stick anyway, i rarely pay close attention to someone that is less than a month with us because there is a good chance he will quit.
    What i encounter is kids wanting to toughen up but have trouble with sparring. You can see they hate it and dread it, and a lot of the times they are clever nice and actually quite skilled kids, and it is a shame to loose them, so i emphasis to spar lightly, not be cruel. Obviously when i spar with a kid i am not going to punch him hard no matter what..the problem is other kids. I also do think that this kids have a place in boxing, as i said we are not a pro gym, nor are we aimed at producing amateur champs, we had a few some years ago, now we are focused more on students, grownups like me and youngsters that were sent boxing to toughen up a little.
    Our goal is to get them fit and teach them how to box, that is it.
  9. erezb is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2013 10:37am


     Style: Boxing,Kickboxing K1

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    Yeah, I would take it on a kid by kid basis. I have two kids and I spar with both of them. One of them takes a beating and comes in for more. Matter of fact he gets more into it, the more intense the sparring. The other one is actually better. His techniques are a lot cleaner and his movement is better. But you pop him one time a little too hard and he starts crying and shuts down. So I have to spar with them differently. If I did both of them the same, one or the other wouldn't get anything out of it.

    Main thing I make sure I do is go full speed but very the intensity level. Either with padded sticks, focus mits, bigger gloves, kick/punch shields, or lighter punches. But full speed either way. I don't think that going slower helps them any, just makes them lazy. Also, keeping it fun.
    It is hard to control your power when going full speed, all that needs to happen is that the kid bobs when you think he is going to lean back and he gets punched hard.
    What i see happens when you spar hard (also from experience) is this horribly boring sparring matches that can't be called boxing, usually one quick punch and immediately jumping back, rabbit punching against any close contact and all sorts of BS when the goal becomes surviving those rounds of free sparring.
    Though hard sparring toughens you up it seems to loose a lot IMO. If you feel that you are going to get punished for every mistake (trying something new) than you won't try it and your advance into someone that actually box will have to wait until hard punches don't phase you much... some people are born fighters and from the get go will stay cool even when bloodied, but most of us aren't.
    Going slow and soft sometimes is needed to get them to listen to directions during sparring, as things progress and their guard is better, their movements more logical and predictable you can speed it up. I think that if a kid/guy is shutting down during sparring and going into survivle mode than this is not ideal, the whole point is to try new stuff and perfect them.

    But again, the time constraint is a player here, if they were to train daily , grate u can take your time with light sparring and gradually kick it up..but when they have twice a week...what is better? a slightly better technique or a better attitude when under stress of hardish punches?
    Last edited by erezb; 12/20/2013 10:41am at .
  10. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2013 11:22am

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

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    Quote Originally Posted by erezb View Post
    It is hard to control your power when going full speed, all that needs to happen is that the kid bobs when you think he is going to lean back and he gets punched hard.
    What i see happens when you spar hard (also from experience) is this horribly boring sparring matches that can't be called boxing, usually one quick punch and immediately jumping back, rabbit punching against any close contact and all sorts of BS when the goal becomes surviving those rounds of free sparring.
    Though hard sparring toughens you up it seems to loose a lot IMO. If you feel that you are going to get punished for every mistake (trying something new) than you won't try it and your advance into someone that actually box will have to wait until hard punches don't phase you much... some people are born fighters and from the get go will stay cool even when bloodied, but most of us aren't.
    Going slow and soft sometimes is needed to get them to listen to directions during sparring, as things progress and their guard is better, their movements more logical and predictable you can speed it up. I think that if a kid/guy is shutting down during sparring and going into survivle mode than this is not ideal, the whole point is to try new stuff and perfect them.

    But again, the time constraint is a player here, if they were to train daily , grate u can take your time with light sparring and gradually kick it up..but when they have twice a week...what is better? a slightly better technique or a better attitude when under stress of hardish punches?
    Sounds like you have it all figured out. Good luck with that.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
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