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  1. #91
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    Hiya, Pship. I see you saying hello, with a wink and a nudge.
    Collusion I say collusion my boy...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

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  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post

    2) Situation with multiple attackers
    If one person is faced with multiple opponents he/she is always at a great disadvantage, regardless of the style. Suppose a guy who does boxe is attacked by 3 people, the only way he can win is to KO at least one of them more or less instantly, and punch the others in such a way that they are scared and retreat.
    that's why I don't claim that boxing alone (or grapling alone for that matter) is the perfect solution.
    and probably the best thing would be to throw (if that's possible) someone on the ground. Fists can miss, ground never does. and concrete floor is tad harder than the fist anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    Do you realize how difficult is that? KOing people isn't that easy, as the human body isn't that weak. It would take a very very good boxer, possibly much stronger than his opponents. This is probably the reason many fights end on the ground, as most people aren't really able to end them with striking and end up "crappling" (that is, doing instinctive grappling).
    this is why some fights end on the ground- I'm sure that's what you have meant. And even when they do, the best thing is to get up as fast as possible and boot the guys face/head/balls/stomach to the ground. Or run away. Not to stay up, do nothing and meet their mates


    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    3) Various situations in self defence
    In my opinion, the term "self defence" refers to many different possible situations. In some of these situations, BJJ might not be the best choice, but in many other it is (since ending up on the ground is often the worst possible scenario), so singling out one possible situation isn't a good reason to say that BJJ is not good for self defense.
    I have never written that ability to do the groundfighting is useless. I have just, marely, pointed out that overfocusing (as does the GJJ or sport sambo) on that is bad. You need to be able to strike your opponent while standing (and remain standing as long as possible)


    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    BJJ/GJJ focus on groundwork, primarily, takedown and takedown defense secondarily, and give little attention to striking (although it is certainly present in old school GJJ).

    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    From a self defense application, takedowns/throws are terrific, since the objective is to get away from an attack unharmed, and an attacker on the ground is relatively easy to escape from.
    I agree totally.


    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    Outside of that, yes, some attacks do result with a defender on the ground, and an inability to rectify that situation is a major hole in one's skillset.
    again, it's hard not to totally agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    Of particular concern to women would be defense from sexual assault, where the objective of the attacker is to place himself in a position ideal for the defender. Additionally, in the case of a size disparity, being on the ground mitigates the ability to use one's weight for striking, placing a trained groundfighter at a relative advantage.
    yes. *relative* is a good term. 50 kg woman is pretty much defenseless against 100+ kg guy who intends to harm her (and no, knowing how to strike him wouldn't help her that much either).



    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    What nobody trains for is to flop onto the ground in the event of any attack irrespective of context. The flaw in the inevitable "his buddies are going to kick you" is the way to avoid getting jumped is to not participate voluntarily in violence. These scenarios are almost always presented as a bar fight. Well, I personally have a perfect record in bar fights: 0/0.
    Than you are visiting rather decent pubs. or, more likely, mine are crap. or both.

    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    Any other record is imperfect, as it indicates you were stupid enough to get into a bar fight.
    sometimes you have to defend yourself or your better half.


    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    Real, unprovoked violence doesn't involve unidentified people standing around who will surprisingly jump in, as the goal of the attacker will be to injure or rob, and they will therefore present as much force as they have available to cow the potential victim. And, yes, as Mister Mr says, facing multiple opponents is a spectacular disadvantage however you approach it, and anybody telling you otherwise is being disingenuous to sell you something, or they've drunk the Kool Aid. If you can't de-escalate and/or flee, try a throw, try a one-punch knockout, try a standing guillotine and try to keep that guy between you and his buddies until he goes limp. Go with your A game, but be assured it's probably not going to go well unless you're a superhero.
    correct- to a point. you can be attacked by someone with no real reason ("you looked at me in a wrong way" etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    As for how a BJJ/GJJ practitioner deals with striking or more advanced throwing, in my experience, the answer has always been crosstraining.
    so you *do* agree that GJJ alone isn't necessary the best option (as it needs suplemation with something else)? if yes, than... well- that's my point.

  3. #93

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    terima kasih untuk posting

  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by simon_g View Post
    that's why I don't claim that boxing alone (or grapling alone for that matter) is the perfect solution.
    and probably the best thing would be to throw (if that's possible) someone on the ground. Fists can miss, ground never does. and concrete floor is tad harder than the fist anyway.
    Throws are also a problem: in judo, most often you fall on the ground together with your opponent, and anyway if you enter a throw you can't be sure that your opponent won't pull you down, so if you enter a throw it's better if you feel confident of your grond skills. It's arguable that a martial arts like judo, that has ground fighting but isn't as focused on it as BJJ, might be enough ground fighting for self defence.
    On this point, I should make clear that I don't do BJJ and, while I think it's a good martial art for self defence, I don't think that it is "The Best" in an absolute sense (more on this later).

    the best thing is to get up as fast as possible and boot the guys face/head/balls/stomach to the ground. Or run away. Not to stay up, do nothing and meet their mates
    I do Nippon Kempo and in NK, when you throw an opponent to the ground, you have to stand up and hit from above to score, or either to pin your opponent and than knee him (we use tons of protections).
    I do think that this is something that might be useful in some situations, but you still end up with lower ground-fighting than someone who does BJJ, because you spend less time training on the ground with less trained partners.

    so you *do* agree that GJJ alone isn't necessary the best option (as it needs suplemation with something else)? if yes, than... well- that's my point.
    I personally think that this is a wrong way to put the question. For example, there are cars that are faster, cars that are cheaper, cars that are less polluting etc.. We can in a very general way say that some car is petter than another, but depending on the circumstances one might prefer a less polluting car, or a cheaper car, so that there isn't really "The Best Car" in an absolute sense.
    So BJJ is not "The Best" because "The Best" is a nonsensical definition, not because of some specifical problem with BJJ.
    I personally would "supplement" BJJ, the same way I'm "supplementing" Judo with Nippon Kempo, however I'm an amateur and I could possibly train a lot more Judo and dump Nippon Kempo (or the reverse), in what sense is supplementing better than specializinng?
    If your interest is to be a "well rounded" fighter, then certainly you should do both a striking art and a grappling art, not a purely grappling art like BJJ, but this comes down on your initial preference for well-roundedness.

    I think that a better question would be: is there some art/style that is complete enough that you can do that alone, or is the only way to get good at both grappling and striking always to train two separate styles (one grappling and one striking)?

  5. #95
    ermghoti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon_g View Post
    I have never written that ability to do the groundfighting is useless. I have just, marely, pointed out that overfocusing (as does the GJJ or sport sambo) on that is bad. You need to be able to strike your opponent while standing (and remain standing as long as possible)
    That is an assertion based on a highly situational presumption that self defense primarily occurs in a crowd of people sympathetic to your attacker. This is simply untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by simon_g View Post
    yes. *relative* is a good term. 50 kg woman is pretty much defenseless against 100+ kg guy who intends to harm her (and no, knowing how to strike him wouldn't help her that much either).
    She's actually more helpless if she were to rely on striking or even throwing. I've already pointed out that grappling is the least disadvantageous means of a smaller person fighting a larger, as it much easier to isolate parts of the body such that the smaller person has a contextual strength/weight advantage long enough to take control of the situation. Other than a puncher's proverbial chance, a small striker needs to have a monumental skill advantage to move up in weight, while conversely, there are any number of examples in controlled environments of smaller grapplers prevailing over larger, even in pro competitions where each fighter was at least ostensibly trained.

    Quote Originally Posted by simon_g View Post
    Than you are visiting rather decent pubs. or, more likely, mine are crap. or both.
    Potayto potahto. I would never go to or intentionally visit where being attacked at random was a likely possibility. I know or have known people from a fairly broad demographic spectrum, and I can't think of a single time when somebody was singled out in a crowd without initiating or escalating the confrontation. Closest example would be one of my collage classmates was bowling with a group, when an odd individual walked up to him and announced "I'm going to get you," and disappeared. He thought nothing of it, but on his way back to his car, the guy snuck up behind him, and knocked him out with a blow to the head with a 2x4. Not really anything you can do about that from a technique perspective.

    The closest I've come was some guy that decided that our group playing video golf had addressed him with one of our exclamations about the game, and got all puffed up. We had calmed him down in a couple seconds, but security was already on their way to toss him. We lobbied on his behalf, but they had already made their decision.

    Out in the wild, a guy tried to rob me, unarmed, while I was delivering pizza. He had a cohort who was reluctant to have anything to do with the robbery. Now, I certainly wouldn't have chosen to lay on my back as a response, but there was also certainly no unidentified crowd of headstompers. If I were limited entirely to the current BJJ core curriculum, I had any number of throws and standing submissions at my disposal, which would have worked about as well as anything other than a weapon. As it was, deescalation worked fine, and the store lost no money.

    Quote Originally Posted by simon_g View Post
    sometimes you have to defend yourself or your better half.
    In a bar? Against some guy who thought yo looked at him funny? No. Not unless you've consciously decided to hang out in a shithole.

    Quote Originally Posted by simon_g View Post
    correct- to a point. you can be attacked by someone with no real reason ("you looked at me in a wrong way" etc).
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by simon_g View Post
    so you *do* agree that GJJ alone isn't necessary the best option (as it needs suplemation with something else)? if yes, than... well- that's my point.
    No, that wasn't your original point, and Mister Mr has covered most of my response. You're also avoiding that GJJ has a specific self defense component which covers basic striking/defense, which is why I separate it from BJJ in general. How useful that portion of the art is opposed to crosstraining is a valid argument. Even in my classes, which were not GJJ, my instructors at a minimum pointed out the necessity of keeping one's hands high, and reminding us of when a technique were unworkable outside of competition, some instructors more, some less.

    Outside of MMA, which is generally trained as a collection of specialties anyway, and maybe combat Sambo, There isn't an art that adequately covers all three unarmed ranges plus at least basic use and defense of hand to hand weapons. No art that I know of spends time on the most critical aspects of self-defense: avoidance, deescalation and defense, let alone the legal implications of defense. If you're going to argue that some art is flawed because it isn't completely ideal for every self-defense scenario, you're making an argument that is both accurate and useless.
    "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil
    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    At the point, I must act! You see my rashguard saids "Jiu Jitsu vs The World" and "The World" was standing in front me teaching Anti-Grappling in a school I help run.
    [quote=SoulMechanic]Thank you, not dying really rewarding in more ways than I can express.[/[quote]

  6. #96

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    Well said, ermy. Missed you while you were away!

    EDIT: Actually, for a Dead Horse thread, I am finding the comments pretty darn useful and informative. Thanks to MisterMR, too.
    Last edited by SneakyGoblin; 10/10/2017 7:53am at . Reason: Recognition

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by SneakyGoblin View Post
    Well said, ermy. Missed you while you were away!

    EDIT: Actually, for a Dead Horse thread, I am finding the comments pretty darn useful and informative. Thanks to MisterMR, too.
    --blushes--

  8. #98
    ermghoti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SneakyGoblin View Post
    Well said, ermy. Missed you while you were away!
    Thanks! I haven't been that away, I lurk and shitpost on a variable frequency, depending on how busy I am, whether my phone works for posting on a given day, etc.
    "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil
    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    At the point, I must act! You see my rashguard saids "Jiu Jitsu vs The World" and "The World" was standing in front me teaching Anti-Grappling in a school I help run.
    [quote=SoulMechanic]Thank you, not dying really rewarding in more ways than I can express.[/[quote]

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    Thanks! I haven't been that away, I lurk and shitpost on a variable frequency, depending on how busy I am, whether my phone works for posting on a given day, etc.
    A few days without ermghoti humor leaves me feeling listless.

  10. #100
    ermghoti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SneakyGoblin View Post
    A few days without ermghoti humor leaves me feeling listless.
    Ask your doctor if ermghoti is right for you.
    "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil
    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    At the point, I must act! You see my rashguard saids "Jiu Jitsu vs The World" and "The World" was standing in front me teaching Anti-Grappling in a school I help run.
    [quote=SoulMechanic]Thank you, not dying really rewarding in more ways than I can express.[/[quote]

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