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  1. CM New Mexico is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2013 2:24am

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     Style: Crazy Monkey, Jitz

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi guys, my name is Nathan Wagar, I'm a Pro-Trainer in CM, and I'd like to make a few points in response to some of the posts on this thread.

    1. CM is not a covering system, it is an integrated methodology designed to teach the standup game through all the various ranges. Modified bobbing and weaving, more advanced counter-strikes, feints, draws, evasive techniques, dirty boxing, and subtleties in distance are all part of the core curriculum. This is all without getting into the specific self-preservation or military-specific curriculum.

    2. The CM program has not fallen off since Rodney left SBG, any more than Adam Singer, Paul Sharp or Jerry Wetzel have (Paul just did a seminar at my gym a couple weekends ago). We have chosen to broaden our client focus beyond people that just want to fight. Hell Cecil Burch was just on SWAT TV with former Delta operator Kyle Lamb, teaching him CM, and I teach a few of the Secret Service out here in NM. Who should we be making inroads with?

    3. I am the anomaly in that I started my gym from the ground up. Many of our trainers do still have backgrounds in, and a love for traditional martial arts, and it would be foolish to assert that they must simply turn away their pre-existing client base. I assure you that Brian has a very capable game, and more importantly, he will give you a positive experience and raise your game to higher levels if you train with him.

    4. I have heard several negative statements, not necessarily on just this thread, about Rodney going the "life performance" "mental" route. Okay, that's cool. So why do you do martial arts? How many fights have any of you been in? How many fights can even a professional realistically hope to be in before their body is done? Most of us are middle class, how many times will we be attacked in our lives? Alright cool...so...why are you training? The main goal in any of our lives isn't to live a segmented existence, it's to live cohesively. What we learn on the mat can be and should be applied outside the gym as well, otherwise what are you paying money for? The HeartMath medical specialists have been championing mental techniques for years. Rodney's mental game is a performance method using western sports psychology that actually teaches to apply visualization and stay focused throughout sparring to achieve peak performance. In the future we are looking at applications to PTSD, because it has helped myself immensely in that regard. Basically, aside from combat efficiency, I started CM to heal. Not because of their fight team. Another thing to point out is that Rodney had a rough background and some negative experiences in the MMA world in the past. Back when he was knocking people out with livershots he was called a bully, and now that he is focused on using combat sports as a vehicle for life performance with proven techniques, he's suddenly entering Hippie territory?

    5. Our quality control is easy to check up on. Go to the main website, and look carefully at what each trainer is allowed to teach based on their ranking. Problem solved. Nobody is even allowed to teach fighters without Rodney's okay. Nobody is allowed to teach the Combat Intelligent Soldier program unless they are prior military. Nobody can teach the Combat Intelligent Officer program unless they are prior law enforcement. Who else does that? Honestly guys, a lot of the questions I've seen on CM can be answered by a quick google search, or going straight to primary sources. That is what this website is about, correct?

    5. Further, every trainer has their unique specialty. Mine is more the reality-based self-defense. If you wanted to fight, Adam Kayoom and Eric Kolesar would be live options. Rodney himself was the one training the EFC Africa Lightweight champ Costa Ioannou. But the fact is, the majority of people in the universe don't want to fight. They want to learn to fight, without having to fight, and have fun. Period. If you want a fight team, go somewhere else. When you want to live a healthy lifestyle with combat sports, and learn, in my humble opinion, one the most effective system for self-defense currently in existence, come check out one of our gyms. We will be here for you. Take care guys.
  2. Sam Kressin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2013 5:23am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My real name is Sam Kressin

    I'm a Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu- Jitsu under Chris Haueter. Who was one of Rigan Machado's first American Black Belts. He was the first American Black Belt in Compete in the Mundials in Brazil and he was also the guy that gave Matt Thorton who headed up SBGi his Black Belt.

    I'm also an assistant Coach in Catch Wrestling under Billy Robinson. Who has trained Sakuraba, Josh Barnett even Erik Paulson has gone to Billy as a student to learn from him. I've put in several hundred hours of mat time with Billy and still train with him.

    I'm also an Advanced Trainer in the Crazy Monkey Defense Program. I had already Boxed for a number of years before I ever met Rodney King or started in CMD. I meet Rodney in 2003 at an SBG event. My boxing game was improved almost instantly as a result of his coaching and the training I got from him. So I have followed his career ever since. I was one of the first trainers he licensed beginning in 2007.

    I can tell you if you want to improve your stand up game especially if you want to be able to develop a style of striking you can seamlessly plug into your grappling game or modify for self defense purposes the Crazy Monkey Defense Program is legit.

    Rodney simply wants his martial arts to have more meaning and value to people beyond fighting. Which are the reasons he has put a lot of emphasis on mental game training and life coaching through the years. Todate my only interest in training martial arts is because I enjoy it and I think it's fun that's it for me. I personally use the mental game strategies Rodney's taught me all time and not just in my stand up game but it carries over into grappling as well.

    Concerning Swift Kick Martial Arts; The owner of the school Brian takes grappling privates from me nearly every week. He's also been in the Crazy Monkey Defense Program since 2009 and he is VERY good. It's true his school is a family based martial arts center, he has a back ground in Traditional Martial Arts which many of his clients still enjoy doing but I can assure you he does in fact teach the Crazy Monkey Defense Program curriculum to all his clients and they learn some very good skills.

    Here's a video of myself DRILLING (we are not sparring) at Swift Kick with one of Brian's students this is after I had finished an hour of sparring with a bunch of Swift Kick guys and we are just trying to work out some of the issues that came up during our sparring session.

    Sorry I can't post videos on here because I haven't reached the 5 post limit so you will have to go to my youtube channel which is my name if you'd like to watch it.
  3. Tacitus is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2014 11:07am

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     Style: Crazy Monkey, BJJ, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi, I haven't posted in a while, but thought I would clear some things up.
    For the sake of full disclosure, I'm a trainer in trainer in the Crazy Monkey Defense system. My opinions of it, however are my own. Also, I'm a new trainer-in-training, so any failure to properly represent CM is my own.

    The one thing I see in this thread, is that those most down on it haven't actually trained in the system. Those few that have, have gotten something from it, and find it a functional method. That should say something right here.

    I would just like to point a few things out. First, if it is a genuine concern that there is potential quality control issue, I don't think that is fair or the case. Trainers certificates aren't just printed up based on time it, but based on actually meeting and, for lack of better word, being tested on what you know. If you know the material, you can be a trainer, if not, it's back to practice.

    In my neck of the woods, I was around the periphery of BJJ in the early days, before it blew up. Most teachers who are now authentic black belts around here, learned in a similar way, because they didn't have recourse to a local teacher. As a matter of fact, I would suggest that group study, regular meetings with an authentic high level teacher, was really the way BJJ spread so fast. When a lot of gyms opened up, they were run by white or blue belts. I don't see a problem with this one bit, all those guys are now awesome on the mats, so for me it's clear that this method can work to produce competent martial artists (if it is done right). Trainer's don't just order a bunch of dvds and start teaching the whole system. They work through a part of it, meet with an higher level trainer, and if they are ready move forward and are able to teach more of the curriculum. Again, this is like the way BJJ was deseminated in its early days, where someone would learn a white belt curriculum, work on it, internalize, roll and then come back to the teacher for more. Eventually they might, say, get a blue belt, and then they could start teaching that level. If it wasn't for this method, if a would-be instructor had to go train with a BJJ professor until reaching black belt (or even brown or purple) most people would not be training today, because of how long it takes to get to that point.
    Secondly, many of the hallmarks of bad martial arts are NOT present in Crazy Monkey. For example, I'm thinking here of the fact that the system is trained alive, sparring is a component of most peoples game, and the head coach (Rodney King) has an undeniable pedigree in functional systems like muay thai, boxing, bjj (3rd degree BB).

    What was posted above, in the Swift Kick video, was not, and was never meant, to represent CM. The head instructor there had a TMA background, and continues to teach that because he has students interested (and I imagine he is interested in it himself). I don't really get the problem here with him adding a separate (and I understand they are kept separate) likely more functional system to what he is offering students. TMA might not be your or my cup of tea, but some people enjoy it for a variety of reasons. The fact that he is also teaching a (in my opinion and the opinion of many) functional and 'alive' system should be a positive, not a negative. Again, to use the BJJ analogy, it is like a TMA instructor bringing in BJJ curriculum to make his students more well around.

    The last thing is the whole 'life perfomance coach". Again I don't really get the issue here. What's everyone's problem with sports psychology? Athletes (including most high level MMA fighters) work hard not just on their physical game, but their mental game as well. Rodney, from what I see, isn't setting himself up as some kind of 'guru', but is just coaching the mental game so that people can actually successfully deploy what they have learned. And yes, there is an element here of taking this off the mats and into general life. Some people (like myself) get something out of that and find it of value, some don't. For myself, I don't really understand why anyone would want to do martial arts if it didn't positively affect your life, unless that is you are a high level MMA fighter earning big money.
  4. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2014 12:04pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    Those few that have, have gotten something from it, and find it a functional method. That should say something right here.
    It says to me that very few people out of a web site that has 1000s of people found it slightly useful. Yeah that is not exactly a ringing endorsement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I would just like to point a few things out. First, if it is a genuine concern that there is potential quality control issue,
    That was actually the only real concern raised in this thread as far as I can see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I don't think that is fair or the case. Trainers certificates aren't just printed up based on time it, but based on actually meeting and, for lack of better word, being tested on what you know. If you know the material, you can be a trainer, if not, it's back to practice.
    This doesn't insure quality control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    A whole mess of bullshit about BJJ
    Comparing CMD certification style to that of BJJ doesn't mesh up well.
    BJJ has always had one big quality control element. Its sport aspects. The fact it was used in MMA and Grappling. The competing kept BJJ Honest. You also could tell if what you where learning worked by pressure testing it.
    CMD being taught in schools without this pressure testing is the issue. Sidekicks is a perfect example. This isn't a school that is using CMD in an alive manner. They are not using it for boxing or MT. Its a line on their resume to make their school look a bit less like ****. It chips away greatly at CMD quality control. When you have instructors who have not themselves pressure tested it and don't continue to do so.
    Even worse you have instructors that don't have a vehicle in which to employ it with.
    you can think of CMD as a turbo charger doesn't do you damn bit of good if you don't have an engine setup right to put it on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    Secondly, many of the hallmarks of bad martial arts are NOT present in Crazy Monkey. For example, I'm thinking here of the fact that the system is trained alive, sparring is a component of most peoples game, and the head coach (Rodney King) has an undeniable pedigree in functional systems like muay thai, boxing, bjj (3rd degree BB).
    If you wanted to learn CMD from Rodney King than great, if you are at a boxing gym teaching it great. If you are at a place that actively competes and have incorporated CMD into the syllabus and are winning competitions great.

    This is not what we saw on the list.

    CMD being taught at a school doesn't mean **** if that school isn't competing with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    What was posted above, in the Swift Kick video, was not, and was never meant, to represent CM.
    No it was to show the over all quality of instruction at Swift Kick. For **** sake if they can't even teach the **** that they are suppose to know right. You know that stuff they have years upon years learning and teaching. How the **** are they going to teach CM? How good of quality do you think the CM instruction is going to be?
    How usable do you think its going to be?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    The head instructor there had a TMA background, and continues to teach that because he has students interested (and I imagine he is interested in it himself). I don't really get the problem here with him adding a separate (and I understand they are kept separate) likely more functional system to what he is offering students. TMA might not be your or my cup of tea, but some people enjoy it for a variety of reasons. The fact that he is also teaching a (in my opinion and the opinion of many) functional and 'alive' system should be a positive, not a negative. Again, to use the BJJ analogy, it is like a TMA instructor bringing in BJJ curriculum to make his students more well around.
    WOW what a bunch of bullshit. Lets use your BJJ analogy.
    This happens one of 2 ways typically.
    They bring in an actual vetted BJJ Instructor into their school. This is good. Students learn from someone that knows what the **** they are doing.
    or
    The guy try's and teach BJJ himself after going to a few seminars. This is bad.

    This is where a school like sidekicks fail. They don't have the underlying base to really teach an alive method like CMD.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    The last thing is the whole 'life perfomance coach". Again I don't really get the issue here. What's everyone's problem with sports psychology? Athletes (including most high level MMA fighters) work hard not just on their physical game, but their mental game as well. Rodney, from what I see, isn't setting himself up as some kind of 'guru', but is just coaching the mental game so that people can actually successfully deploy what they have learned. And yes, there is an element here of taking this off the mats and into general life. Some people (like myself) get something out of that and find it of value, some don't. For myself, I don't really understand why anyone would want to do martial arts if it didn't positively affect your life, unless that is you are a high level MMA fighter earning big money.
    Where the **** did all this **** come from? Did anyone mention this bullshit and I missed it?
    No one here said **** about sports psychology. Not a single person. No one bad talked it. So what the **** are you smoking?
  5. Mackan is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2014 2:54pm


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am not calling bullshit or anything, but Rodney has a 3rd degree BB in BJJ and keeps teaching basic boxing? No offense intended.

    And what is his lineage in BJJ, since he does "Monkey Jits" aswell?
  6. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2014 3:12pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mackan View Post
    And what is his lineage in BJJ, since he does "Monkey Jits" aswell?
    http://www.crazymonkeydefense.com/monkey-jits/

    About Rodney King

    When Rodney first brought Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to South Africa in 1998, there were only 2 people in the whole country offering Brazilian Jiu Jitsu training. In 1998 after receiving his Blue Belt from Rigan Machado, he traveled to Brazil to continue his training.

    In the subsequent years Rodney has coached Brazilian Jiu Jitsu around the world, offering his unique approach, that focuses on play, challenge and performance — while avoiding hyper-competitiveness, and the ‘Meathead’ mentally so prevalent today in many Brazilian Jiu Jitsu schools.

    As a 3rd degree Black Belt, under his teacher and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu legend, Rigan Machado, Rodney honors Rigan’s philosophy of the ‘Uncomplicated Game’, coaching his clients in what REALLY works, while having fun doing it!
    http://www.monkeyjits.com/

    looks like you have to be a member to see all the good stuff
    but any sort of online BJJ school with online grading typically isn't going to wow anyone here.
  7. Mackan is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2014 4:09pm


     Style: Grappling

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    looks like you have to be a member to see all the good stuff
    but any sort of online BJJ school with online grading typically isn't going to wow anyone here.
    Yeah...

    I listen to the videos and it seems that what he is selling is very "non-sport", "ranks apply in our organisation" and such. Not that necessarily means that it sucks, only... Terms and conditions.

    Cool. Thx.
  8. Tacitus is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2014 7:08pm

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     Style: Crazy Monkey, BJJ, MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I really don't want to get into a flame war here. And I'm defenately not going to go down the 'sport vs. street' route either. But...

    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post


    Comparing CMD certification style to that of BJJ doesn't mesh up well.
    BJJ has always had one big quality control element. Its sport aspects. The fact it was used in MMA and Grappling. The competing kept BJJ Honest. You also could tell if what you where learning worked by pressure testing it.
    I agree with this about BJJ for the most part. But honest towards what end? At the same time there are some in the BJJ community (like some of the Gracie's) who have argued that overly competitive environments have made BJJ less effective for the street. Ii know, I know, the 'deadly street'. But for some this is important. Without a doubt, the competition leads to innovation, really amazing displays, creativity. I want to be clear I am NOT down on competition. But for me, competition isn't really the matrix through which I judge an art, other than if is good in competition. MMA is awesome, and is generally a lot more street effective than RBSD or something though.

    But competition and pressure testing are two different things.


    CMD being taught in schools without this pressure testing is the issue. Sidekicks is a perfect example. This isn't a school that is using CMD in an alive manner. They are not using it for boxing or MT.
    How do you know? How do you define pressure testing? As all out, balls to the wall sparing? Pressure testing should be progressive. More to the point, while it might not be hardcore enough for you, not everyone wants to spar. We can argue if this is a good or bad thing, but it is a fact. Most MMA gyms, muay thai, or boxing gyms, I have been in did NOT teach sparring to everyone. You needed to do either personal training, or small group classes to spar, and then you got to jump in with the regular sparing group. This is how it works for CM too. If people want to spar, that is an option. But not everyone wants or can do that. I think you need to get out more if you don't realize that this is COMMON in more striking arts, not an exception. I haven't been to Swift Kick, I'm not 100% sure how they work. I would imagine that pressure testing is done everyday, but fully resistive sparing is probably for those few that chose this option. This is no different than EVERY MMA GYM I have ever been in or heard of. There are multiple streams. But to restate, many in CM do spar, regularly.


    Its a line on their resume to make their school look a bit less like ****.
    This is totally an unsubstantiated opinion. How do you know that it isn't the reverse, where CM is the love, and the other is for money (not saying it is, but it just as substantiated as the above).


    It chips away greatly at CMD quality control. When you have instructors who have not themselves pressure tested it and don't continue to do so.
    Not sure what you mean by pressure test, you seem to be equating it to what, competition? First off, there are many good coaches out there in a variety of sports that never competed but are good, sometimes great coaches. Secondly, how do you know how much he pressure tests what he does? Where are you getting your information from? Would really like to know? How long did you train there?


    Even worse you have instructors that don't have a vehicle in which to employ it with.
    you can think of CMD as a turbo charger doesn't do you damn bit of good if you don't have an engine setup right to put it on.
    This statement, along with the part where you mention if its not 'trained with boxing or muay thai', tells me you know absolutly nothing about what you are talking about. Lik zero. Like you should shut up because you are totally uninforment about what you are saying. You seem to think that CMD is a hand position/stance/blocking technique. It is an entire striking system, that incoporates boxing and muay thai into it. I'll say it again, CMD is not a hand position. You don't just take the hand position and start doing TKD or something. Is that what you think is happening? You are essentially using boxing hands, with a modified stance, higher guard, as well as low line MT kicks, clinch work that also has some wrestling influence, with various elbows, knees etc. That is CMD. You would know this if your only point of reference wasn't a youtube clip or some 15 year old forum chatter.

    If you are at a place that actively competes and have incorporated CMD into the syllabus and are winning competitions great.
    Are you saying that the only way to judge the worth of a martial art is how it does in competion. First, this is only a fair judge of CMD if it is being marketed as the 'ultimate' stand up for MMA, or as some B.S. way to stop MMA fighters without all the hard work (like a lot of RBSD for example). It is not.

    Secondly, some of the principles of the CMD HAVE absolutely been incorporated in the games of mixed martial artists...including anyone who trains standup at SBG (who were cut off from the material about a decade ago). The guard itself has been used by many high level MMA fighters. Rodney has also trained at least one major fighter in S. Africa.

    CMD being taught at a school doesn't mean **** if that school isn't competing with it.
    Pressure testing is not the same as competing. I have been to many good schools, like a student Paul Vunak (PFS school) for example, where I don't think anyone 'competed'. They pressure tested though. And most of them spared. And they would likely tear your face off. In other words, competing in fights is not always equivilent to how well something works. I do personally think that to take any striking or grappling art to its highest level in terms of efficacy, there should be sparring at some point, and it should be regular. But just like in the MT gyms I've been in, there are many who just don't want to go down that road. Let me also repeat, that MMA fighters have been trained using CMD...it is not just some made up system that hasn't been tested. It is also not just a system that only highly compitive people can train it (like every other striking art).



    WOW what a bunch of bullshit. Lets use your BJJ analogy.
    This happens one of 2 ways typically.
    They bring in an actual vetted BJJ Instructor into their school. This is good. Students learn from someone that knows what the **** they are doing.
    or
    The guy try's and teach BJJ himself after going to a few seminars. This is bad.
    Hate to break it to you kid (because I'm assuming you're fairly young, or at least weren't really involved in BJJ in the late 1990's early 2000's) but at least around here, it is really the second that applies. I can think of 4 of the top BJJ instructor's in this city who learned exactly according to #2. And they are awesome. They went to seminars, did private training, and had someone down for seminars a few times a year. They didn't bring anyone down to teach full time at the studo (I only know one place that did this). MMA wasn't as blown up as now, and it just wasn't financially feasable to do pay someone to relocate. So it isn't bullshit. It's a reality. Now things are different for BJJ because it blew up. And that's good. But it absolutely was not the norm. As a matter of fact. I can think of one gym that actually started as some guys watching tapes together and training, letting people pay a mat fee to join in. Then they became affliated, and started the process I've said above.


    They don't have the underlying base to really teach an alive method like CMD.
    I know for a fact that owner of Swift Kick spars and pressure tests. CMD is the underlying base to pressure test itself. Just like how you don't need to train Muay Thai to pressure test boxing.



    No one here said **** about sports psychology. Not a single person. No one bad talked it. So what the **** are you smoking?
    was just clarifying for Fuzzy, who mentioned that there is a "disturbing trend in Mr. King's channel" regarding life coaching. I'm just trying to say, I don't really see anything spiritual, certainly not even close to on the level of what you might here, for example at your local yoga studio. It is really just a particular take on the psychology of combat. The dude is writing his PH.d in it.

    Mackan

    He is a black belt under Rigan Machado.

    And no, there is NO ONLINE ranking for BJJ through King. You don't submit a video and say, get a blue belt.
  9. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2014 7:55pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I really don't want to get into a flame war here. And I'm defenately not going to go down the 'sport vs. street' route either. But...
    Just a friendly discussion nothing more.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    But honest towards what end?
    Well at the very least that it works in competition. This is a great deal more than a lot of arts can claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    At the same time there are some in the BJJ community (like some of the Gracie's) who have argued that overly competitive environments have made BJJ less effective for the street.
    and they are full of ****.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    But competition and pressure testing are two different things.
    Competition is the only real pressure testing most arts will ever see. Lets face it modern day life is fairly civilized. Its rather easy for people to go through their entire lives now without ever having to get physical with someone.
    Competition at the very least pressure test the art against what ever rule set they are using. This is miles better than theorizing. As you already stated your probably better off in MMA to learn self defense than most RBSD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    How do you define pressure testing?
    It pretty much says all on the tin. Testing your art under pressure. Real pressure where you have to deal with adrenalin dumps and nerves. Where their is something to be gained or lost even if its just a match.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    not everyone wants to spar.
    I don't give a **** what everyone wants to do or not do.
    You can't seriously make an argument that a style can be pressure tested without full contact sparing and competing can you?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    Most MMA gyms, muay thai, or boxing gyms, I have been in did NOT teach sparring to everyone.
    Now I know your full of ****. With this that friendly thing just went out the window.
    You are a fucking liar you have never stepped foot into a MMA, MT, Boxing, or BJJ gym in your life. Your comments about sparing and pressure testing prove that you know **** all about aliveness. Given that you don't understand the basics your far from capable of judging CMD or any martial art.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    This is how it works for CM too. If people want to spar, that is an option. But not everyone wants or can do that.
    Proof that CMs quality control is now gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I haven't been to Swift Kick, I'm not 100% sure how they work. I would imagine that pressure testing is done everyday, but fully resistive sparing is probably for those few that chose this option.
    Explain to me how one pressure test an art without Fully restive sparring? No really go on explain that to me. Swift Kicks is a fucking joke and apparently now Crazy Monkey has become one as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    This is no different than EVERY MMA GYM I have ever been in or heard of. There are multiple streams. But to restate, many in CM do spar, regularly.
    LMAO you are so full of **** its not even funny.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    This is totally an unsubstantiated opinion. How do you know that it isn't the reverse, where CM is the love, and the other is for money (not saying it is, but it just as substantiated as the above).
    Are you really this dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    Are you saying that the only way to judge the worth of a martial art is how it does in competion.
    Not exactly, I love the Dog Brothers and they don't have formal competition but if you ever watch a gathering of the pack you will see that they meet the definition of pressure testing. However they are really kind of the exemption to the rule. Yes, yes you need a high stress free form competition to pressure test.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    Secondly, some of the principles of the CMD HAVE absolutely been incorporated in the games of mixed martial artists...including anyone who trains standup at SBG (who were cut off from the material about a decade ago). The guard itself has been used by many high level MMA fighters. Rodney has also trained at least one major fighter in S. Africa.
    I actually don't doubt that Crazy monkey has some good things in it. The concern I raised was the quality control, which was doubled down on when I saw the fact that they let the ass hats at swift kicks teach it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    Hate to break it to you kid (because I'm assuming you're fairly young
    I am 34
    I have been grappling off and on for a very long time. Since I was a kid this includes BJJ at Fabio Santos and Judo at Judo America.

    I live in San Diego area. If you want you can go and see the list of ADCC winners 4 or 5 of them live in my city.

    Show me a champion that has learned via correspondence courses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I know for a fact that owner of Swift Kick spars and pressure tests. CMD is the underlying base to pressure test itself. Just like how you don't need to train Muay Thai to pressure test boxing.
    You don't know **** about Swift Kick or its owner. If you did you wouldn't be asking such stupid fucking questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    Mackan

    He is a black belt under Rigan Machado.

    And no, there is NO ONLINE ranking for BJJ through King. You don't submit a video and say, get a blue belt.
    How well is King's blue belts doing in competition?
  10. Tacitus is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2014 11:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: Crazy Monkey, BJJ, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just a friendly discussion nothing more.
    Great. A friendly, knowledgeable conversation would be great.

    Now I know your full of ****. With this that friendly thing just went out the window.
    That's a shame. I'm going to keep this friendly though, because I don't really let things people say on the internet fire me up.

    Well at the very least that it works in competition. This is a great deal more than a lot of arts can claim.
    In terms of BJJ, I 100% agree with you. It's a great and beautiful art. And I have nothing but respect for high level competitors, and I have no doubt that many (most) of them would do just fine on the street.

    and they are full of ****.
    That's your opinion. I tend to respect the family that created and us the beautiful art of BJJ. And no offense intended, I tend to take their opinion a little more seriously than you. I'm crazy like that. I also agree with them, that people can be great at jiujitsu without having to compete a ton AND that people can be great by competing a ton. There is room for both.

    Why? Because both pressure test through rolling. Because pressure testing is not equivalent to competition. Competition is a form of pressure testing. And if that's where someone wants his or her game to go, that's awesome. But it's not for everyone. And it doesn't have to be.

    Which leads me to this stuff:

    Competition is the only real pressure testing most arts will ever see.
    It strikes me that we might have different ideas of what competition implies. For me it means engaging in a competitive match, usually as part of some kind of event. I don't, for example, equate rolling with competition. And I don't like rolling with those who do.

    So are you saying that rolling is not pressure testing. Because according to your statement, "competition is the only REAL pressure testing [...]". So therefore, I take it you don't see rolling as pressure testing. I have to say, I am in complete disagreement and have never, ever, heard this said before (that rolling is not pressure testing).

    Competition at the very least pressure test the art against what ever rule set they are using. This is miles better than theorizing.
    Yeah, pressure testing is necessary. As I say, I don't think competition is the only form of pressure testing. It can be a good one though.

    And I don't think that anyone who practices CMD is 'theorizing'. Everyone pressure tests along a spectrum. Just like how a lot of BJJ guys pressure test only to a certain point. For example, through rolling. Some go beyond this, and do competition. Some go beyond this and do MMA or vale tudo. But this last group is more rare. You seem to have set the bench mark at 'competition'. But what kind? Is just grappling really enough of a pressure test for you? Have you done MMA, that is participated in a NHB style event? If not, by your own standards, have you pressure tested your art? If not, why?

    I ask, because you seem to be making the claim that a martial artist to be decent needs to pressure test (which I agree with), but that the only "real" pressure testing, is competition. So, in questioning the basis of your claim, I have to ask if you have met its fundamental assumptions. In other words, if you are going to come down on a particular practitioner for not being good enough for not competing in MMA, as well as suggesting that everyone who doesn't practice in this way can't
    I.
    seriously make an argument that a style can be pressure tested without full contact sparing and competing can you?
    Then I want to know what your benchmark for pressure testing is, especially when you are calling mine into question. For example, it seems based on what you say here:

    am 34
    I have been grappling off and on for a very long time. Since I was a kid this includes BJJ at Fabio Santos and Judo at Judo America.
    have never actually participated in an MMA event. Have you ever actually practiced your art against someone actively trying to punch you in the face etc? If not, then by your own standards, have you pressure tested it?

    You have pressure tested it, like you say, in regards to the context of grappling. And that is, like you also say, a lot better than those who don't pressure test at all. But let's be honest here, you're not an MMA fighter. You don't, from what I can see, even do any striking. In other words, you have set your personal bench mark for pressure testing at a particular point along a spectrum. You have without a doubt pressure tested, but not to the end of that spectrum (which btw would not be MMA, but in a truly anything goes environment, and that would be nuts).

    Do you see where I'm going with this?

    Now, let's move on for a moment, because I would like to deal with this, because I think it says a lot about what you generally brought to this conversation, and the level you have taken (down) to.

    Now I know your full of ****. With this that friendly thing just went out the window.
    You are a fucking liar you have never stepped foot into a MMA, MT, Boxing, or BJJ gym in your life. Your comments about sparing and pressure testing prove that you know **** all about aliveness. Given that you don't understand the basics your far from capable of judging CMD or any martial art.
    This is great classic example of fallacious ad hominem, and really, unfortunately, discredits much of what you have said.

    How could you possibly know that "I have never stepped foot into an MMA, MT, BOxing or BJJ gym in [my] life?". This is a totally unsubstantiated claim you are making, something which you can not possibly know, and which is completely lacking in evidence. Which is pretty much par for the course for your level of rhetoric and your general apparent ignorance on this topic. I think this stands in direct contradiction to the values that this site was founded upon.

    Yet, despite not being possibly able to know this, you then precede to use it as a (false) proof, that I don't know anything, and therefore my claims are invalid. Nice shortcut to thinking there. May I suggest a high school level class in critical thinking or perhaps logical argumentation?

    In fact, because you don't know whether or not I have been in an MMA gym (for the record I have, so there), the rest of your statement is void. Easy enough.

    But what I'd also like to point out is how much of pretty much all your posts on this thread are based on a lack of either experiential or any other actual knowledge in what you are talking about. I tried to make you understand this in my last post, where I noted how you seem to think that CMD is a position or some kind of plug in for boxing or MT (when you said you needed to train it with boxing and Muay Thai for example). This is a statement that fundamentally betrays a total lack of understanding as to CMD is (a 'stand alone' stand up system, with roots in boxing and Muay Thai, and with in many ways very similar training protocols).

    But let's move on again.

    I said
    This is no different than EVERY MMA GYM I have ever been in or heard of. There are multiple streams. But to restate, many in CM do spar, regularly.
    To which you responded:

    LMAO you are so full of **** its not even funny.
    Another proof of your mastery of logic, rhetoric, and ability to engage in anything approximating adult conversation. Sad that you say

    I am 34
    Because I honestly thought I was speaking to a teenager. My bad.

    But let me speak to your 'point'.
    No. I am not full of ****. 'LMAO'. How's that? That's about all I really need to counter that level of argument.

    But, let me do more, and assume you genuinely want to know about this.

    I haven't ever been in an MMA gym where everyone had to spar standup. Everyone who wants to rank in BJJ absolutely needs to spar. The only time I have seen this 'rule' lifted is for people with serious handicaps, who do their best, and are given, say, a blue belt for their efforts. This has happened in one of the best MMA gyms I have ever been in. There, the instructor's know how to meet people where they are. This is also the ideal CM strives for. It might not be your thing. It seems you really enjoy competition. It seems you equate rolling with competition (?). It seems you think, for example, jiujitsu is primarily above competition. I genuinely feel bad that you have learned so little from that art.

    Let me be clear about this for a moment. Sparring is an option for everyone who practices Crazy Monkey. It's there. It works in that environment. For example, Rodney King has trained a number of MMA fighters, like Costa Ioannou, who is, I think, still undefeated in the EFC (high level S. African MMA comp).

    Let me give an example of what I mean by different streams. The three places I have trained Muay Thai (and no, I don't consider myself as anything an expert in it), there were a serious of different classes. You can a beginners class (the biggest), which consisted mostly of pad/bag work, conditioning, and footwork. You then had a 'level 2' class. That was much the same, but ramped up, and involved working the clinch. In level 3 (which was always by invitation only) you could start sparing. Some people weren't invited. Some people chose not to do it. Some people tried it and went back to the other classes. Or did isolation sparring, but not knockdown. I can't fault them. They had lives, families, jobs, and they couldn't show up banged up all the time.

    So when you say:
    your comments about sparing and pressure testing prove that you know **** all about aliveness.
    I have to shoot that back at you. Aliveness without a doubt includes sparring as yet another way of controlled combative interaction. But let's not forget what the concept was really meant to be about. It was not meant to be equated to fully balls-to-the-walls knockdown sparring. It was meant to counter the TMA practice of one step prearranged drills and movement patterns. Training alive includes things like non-prearranged drills, variable resistance, pad work, bag work, isolation sparring etc. Everyone is Crazy Monkey does these, just like anyone who takes a Muay Thai or boxing class does. But, just like in any gym I have been to (and apparently your experience is different here), not everyone ramps it all the way up to sparring.

    Explain to me how one pressure test an art without Fully restive sparring? No really go on explain that to me.
    Are we talking about pressure testing or fully pressure testing. How, for example, do BJJer's pressure test BJJ without engaging in vale tudo matches every practice? Does that seem silly? Well so does that question. Of course BJJ practitioners pressure test what they are doing on a regular basis, but in a controlled way. They have removed some of the variables. Let me be clear here, because I can already feel the steam coming out of your ears. I'm not trying to equate CM with BJJ over much. It is non-attribute based like BJJ, but there really is no equivilent in striking arts to the relative safety of rolling. In other words, like I said before, BJJ (and all grappling arts) art great in that you can train them fully resistive, for long periods of time, and still go to work the next day (or even right after). Striking arts are generally not like this.

    Where I think CM is different that others, is that the nature of the stance and the defense allows one to train with high levels of resistance while remaining relatively safe in terms of head shots. So it allows people who might not otherwise get into standup for fear of having their face punched it, to learn a functional system.

    How far they take that functionality is up to them. Just like in Muay Thai, or boxing, or Kyokushin etc. it is a choice to start to spar knockdown. I don't think this is news. You're not going to get kicked out of your gym/dojo whatever for not sparring. However, in Crazy Monkey there is, as I understand, a seperate ranking system for those who chose to spar (the glove system). This honors those who go this route. There is also a ranking system (if you could call it that) that honors those who continue to train in the art, practice in a functional and alive way that stops (by their choice) just short of full on sparring. Let me clear, this doesn't mean it is non-contact, or not alive. Just that, some people certain to occupy a particular place on the aliveness spectrum.

    Swift Kicks is a fucking joke and apparently now Crazy Monkey has become one as well.
    As far as I know, the CM program there is based on aliveness, the teacher spars regularly etc. He also has students into TMA. Two seperate things. I haven't been there, but this is what I have heard and I personally trust the source. Let me restate that from what I also understand, the video that was posted doesn't even really demonstrate what they do in their TMA stuff. It was a choreographed routine created by a 20 year kid done at charity event to raise money for a charity. How do I know this? I did what the kind of research this site was founded on (and that it's best investigations have done): I asked. Oh, and I understand they raised $7500 for charity at this thing. I know, what an asshole, right?

    It seems to me that you have taken that clip totally out of context and spun a whole narrative about it, as though it was ever meant to show the CMD practiced there. It was not. Shame on you for misrepresenting it as such without due diligence. Very similar to way you attempted just now to slander me, by calling me a liar.

    I don't post here very often these days, but I do read it often. I used to really respect the way this site was run. It was full of intelligent people trying to fight b.s. in martial arts. How are people like yourself getting away with your schtick here?

    The concern I raised was the quality control, which was doubled down on when I saw the fact that they let the ass hats at swift kicks teach it.
    I don't know what your infatuation is with Swift Kicks. You seem to have some strange vendetta against them. They have a family based program. They also teach CMD. Big deal. Over here, one of the top MMA gyms around, run by former UFC competitor, also teaches a popular 'modern' karate program, that includes this contemporary weapons demo stuff where you make up a routine. It's not a big deal to me. I can personally take the slight cognitive dissonance of two different and separate things happening at once. Maybe one day you will get there too.

    Show me a champion that has learned via correspondence courses.
    I don't think I could. I never suggested I could. The trainer's program isn't a correspondence course. I believe I have said this myself. You get material. You are not called a trainer. You work the material for at least year. You go to seminars, you have people down for seminars, if you live close to a trainer or above you go and visit all you can. You bust you're ass and then MAYBE in a year you are trainer. Then you do that same thing for FIVE YEARS (minimum) before you are actually a coach. You don't just tape yourself throwing air punches and then they send you a trainer certificate.

    How well is King's blue belts doing in competition?
    I don't know. I'm not an official representative, like I said at the outset. Do some research.
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