224803 Bullies, 3550 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 33
Page 1 of 4 1 234 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. marconi720 is offline

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    3

    Posted On:
    12/13/2013 11:09am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Joint locks in the real world?

    My background is in Muay Thai and boxing, but I've been curious about certain aspects of Korean arts with joint-locking, like Hapkido or Kuk Sool. Some friends of mine who used to train in similar styles (can't keep track of all the goofy spin-offs) like that have shown me some cool wrist and elbow locks that well, just plain work. They're painful and can be damaging, hard to escape from just using muscle, and difficult to counter with strikes if they're doing it from the correct angle. So from a purely mechanical perspective they are very effective.

    What's lacking, it seems, is a realistic way to actually set this up on an opponent (like myself) who moves in and out quickly and doesn't allow his limbs to be grabbed. But I think there's got to be some way to incorporate or train these in a more... competitive or alive setting, right? Has anyone tried doing any locks from overhooks or the clinch, or maybe even after slipping a sloppy punch? I suppose I could just try in sparring, but if it failed I'd look like an idiot, and if it worked someone would probably get annoyed.

    The most obvious application, the only one I've seen, was not in a ring fight or even against a competent opponent, but against some aggressive drunk grabbing another guy in a bar. It was that hold where the lockee's elbow is facing upward, and the locker tucks the elbow into his armpit and simply puts weight on it. It worked but I didn't see any followthrough because the bouncer showed up within seconds and made the "attacker" (it was all pretty mild) leave.

    Hey, I can see why that would be useful, and there's less risk of jail or lawsuits with a compliance hold compared to knocking someone out (potential risk of death, if there's concrete or brick flooring or if alcohol is involved) or crippling someone's knees with low kicks.

    But other than that kind of scenario, is there anything worthwhile in standing joint-locks? Against a highly trained fighter it seems like a high-risk/low-reward endeavor compared to striking and takedowns, and it's never been done to my knowledge in pro MMA, but then again neither had jumping front kicks, wall kicks or spinning hook kicks until relatively recently... And Chonan's flying scissor heelhook makes me think just about anything can work 0.000001% of the time ;) .
  2. Vieux Normand is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,271

    Posted On:
    12/13/2013 2:18pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not sure if it officially exists or not, but I've had success at the workplace with standing Kimuras.

    Once you're cranking that arm up behind the guy (he's either facing you or he's side-on, or--more commonly--some position in between), you get compliance.

    If he tries anything interesting--such as hitting you with his other arm--just add a little more upward-and-backward pressure on the arm you're controlling; the fight then goes out of him pretty quickly.
  3. Permalost is online now
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    12,554

    Posted On:
    12/13/2013 2:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by marconi720 View Post
    It was that hold where the lockee's elbow is facing upward, and the locker tucks the elbow into his armpit and simply puts weight on it. It worked but I didn't see any followthrough because the bouncer showed up within seconds and made the "attacker" (it was all pretty mild) leave.
    That's called waki gatame. Here's Shinya Aoki showing how he does it:


    If you browse around there's a vid of him breaking an arm with the exact technique.
  4. marconi720 is offline

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    3

    Posted On:
    12/13/2013 3:24pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks Permalost, that's exactly the one. It makes sense that waki gatame (glad to know the name!) is in just about every martial art with locks and police/bouncer training course since it's harder to slip out of (or punch back against) .

    It sounds more theatrical than practical, but the guy who demonstrated that to me said you could get to the locked position and then just drop to the ground (horizontally in the air, WWE style), putting all of your weight on the joint. I guess it would work to annihilate the elbow, but it seems risky (his arm might slip out) and more than a little evil, especially if the poor guy is already tapping...
  5. gregaquaman is online now
    gregaquaman's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arlie Beach
    Posts
    2,537

    Posted On:
    12/13/2013 3:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Arm drags pretty much.

    ]
    Last edited by gregaquaman; 12/13/2013 3:56pm at .
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
    http://www.facebook.com/#!/WhitsundayMartialArts
  6. Ming Loyalist is offline
    Ming Loyalist's Avatar

    solves problems with violence

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,330

    Posted On:
    12/13/2013 4:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    That's called waki gatame. Here's Shinya Aoki showing how he does it:


    If you browse around there's a vid of him breaking an arm with the exact technique.
    we do waki gatame often in my traditional jujutsu class (shut up, i enjoy it, it's a nice addition to my judo) and when people say "you have to be careful with this one it's easy to break the arm" i say "i know, i have video of it breaking an arm in MMA, want to see it?"

    no one ever wants to see it. :(
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  7. BKR is online now
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,445

    Posted On:
    12/13/2013 4:46pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Joint locks are more easily applied in ground work. Even in Judo contests (no striking) standing elbow locks (the only ones allowed) are VERY rare. They usually have to be applied very hard and fast (in Judo at least) to have any chance of success.

    To have any chance of success, you are going to have to do a lot of training in joint locks. Your best chance for that will be BJJ or Judo, where you will learn them in groundwork first, if you ever practice them standing...not many people do.

    But you will learn good mechanics, which you can further apply to standing applications.

    And listen to the guys/gals who are bouncers or LEO. They will have a better perspective on applications.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. CapnMunchh is offline

    Welterweight

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    792

    Posted On:
    12/13/2013 5:00pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A couple of LEOs in my old Aikido school said they'd gotten some use out of simple straight armbars and wristlocks, but they were used on untrained suspects that they were trying not to injure. I wouldn't take chances trying a standing joint lock on a good fighter who's not already hurt.
  9. Permalost is online now
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    12,554

    Posted On:
    12/13/2013 5:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you can get a standing lock "that works", it'll usually lead directly into a grounded version of the same lock, where you can increase the control by using bodyweight to pin. Otherwise, there's enough wiggle room to struggle and move (or try to strike). So, a ground submission could actually be the successful end to a standing lock.

    One of my issues with applying standing locks is the issue that you're usually using both hands and a large amount of focus to attack one of their joints, giving them three limbs to counter your mentally occupied self.
  10. CapnMunchh is offline

    Welterweight

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    792

    Posted On:
    12/13/2013 5:30pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    One of my issues with applying standing locks is the issue that you're usually using both hands and a large amount of focus to attack one of their joints, giving them three limbs to counter your mentally occupied self.
    They don't work if you don't take their balance first thing at the moment of contact, giving them something else to think about.
Page 1 of 4 1 234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.