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  1. The Villain is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2013 3:40pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One thing I want to highlight is that this is not a new scam. It is in fact their business model. The 400$ stated amount is switched to a 2,000$ when people attempt to collect what they've earned. Here you can see them doing it in an early version of this hustle.

    Gusano, you seem to have a lot of built up frustration. You have some validity but your really only half right and maybe I'm being generous there.

    A BJJ blue belt is not that great. Good but far from great. You're able to teach but really you're status is a coach too. You have 10 students as a purple belt, that is great especially considering the amount of money that is paid for BJJ.

    In todays martial art world only the ignorant ones are not incorporating other arts. Grappling has been found to be an art that is needed but it by far is not complete by itself.

    And BJJ is about "getting paid", you just need to be more patient, you're on the right track.

    I do give you props for training under Carlson Sr. But I have news for you, some of the Gracies are guilty too. Why don't you ask Carlson Sr. or Jr. if you see them about Carlson Gracie Jr.'s "International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation?"

    It was a totally bogus home study course. They new that nodody could "teach themselves to blue belt level" within 6 months. Yet after 6 months they sent out letters to the Federation members telling them of their choice of 2 test dates AND THE TEST FEE WAS $1995.00.

    I **** you not. I wouldn't sweat the simple stuff, you're doing OK.
    Check this link for the live post if you can't view the screen shot

    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...861#post331861
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    Last edited by The Villain; 12/14/2013 3:55pm at .
  2. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2013 4:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just to be clear: in 1997 (under CARLSON Jr) the IBJJF wanted $400 to provide a blue belt training certificate, and used a bait and switch to $2000 to actually register the rank. These are the exact amounts quoted to the Villain in 2012 regarding his promotion to black (by Carlos JR). Mark Tripp reports being quoted $400-500 for cert and $2000 for registration IN PERSON by Carlson, jr in 1996 (Mark received the very first IBJJF cert after testing). The numbers continue to be the same only today you need more than a blue to run your own school. In 97 blue was enough.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  3. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2013 9:35pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    11
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This image was originally provided by Ma rk Tripp as part of the Matt Morton investigation. At the time no one guessed that it would be a crucial piece of evidence in nailing down that the IBJJF has had the $400 - $2000 bait and switch as part of its business model since day ONE. Look at the number on coach Tripp's IBJJF cert.

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    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  4. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2013 10:10pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Damn.
  5. OwlMatt is offline

    Registered Member

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    Milwaukee, WI
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    Posted On:
    12/14/2013 10:22pm


     Style: aikido

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow. That's pretty strong stuff. Good find.
  6. Towtruck is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    12/17/2013 11:13am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi, can someone point me in the direction of the information about the above-referenced class action lawsuit against GB? I have read through the UG and Sherdog threads, and if it's there, I missed it.

    Thanks,
  7. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    12/17/2013 2:34pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Towtruck, the information comes from very senior people inside the BJJ community. Bullshido is currently working to locate the specific court with jurisdiction in order to obtain the public records on the case.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  8. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    12/17/2013 3:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Since many people are having trouble sifting through several long threads, I am going to post a series of quotes and extracts detailing all the relevant evidence from the many linked threads.

    Here is part 1 of my long history of BJJ

    ===
    It's that time of year again, and stories about the IBJJF and it's various shortcomings are flying fast and furious. Before you can understand these kinds of problems, it's necessary to understand how the IBJJF came to be, and why a private corporation masquerading as the World Governing Body of a sport is bound to lead to conflict of interest and the appearance of impropriety. This is a little long, and will come in parts.

    Primer on the Organizational History of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil (pt 1)

    In order to understand the origin of the IBJJF and it’s policies, it is necessary (Really) to understand a goodly portion of the history of Professional Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil. I wish there was an easier way, but there is not. That said, it is a fascinating story with it’s own rewards. I think it is safe to say that when you have finished reading this article, you will know more about the history of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil, and the IBJJF in particular, than the vast majority of people involved in the US sport scene. I will try to keep this interesting and painless.

    In the 1920’s and 1930’s there were several active professional Jiu-Jitsu fighters teaching in Brazil; among these were Geo Omori, Takeo Yano, and of course Maeda and the Gracies. Professional Jiu-Jitsu, like all fighting sports belonged to a single Confederação (Confederação Brasileira de Pugilismo) and its respective federações (Federação Carioca de Pugilismo, Federação Paulista de Pugilismo, Federação Bahiana de Pugilismo and so forth, for each state). This system of Federations under a Confederation, analogous to the Association of Boxing Commissions, controlled all fighting sports in Brazil (boxing, wrestling, capoeira, jiu-jitsu, judo, karate etc.), and regulated Jiu-jitsu matches between professionals, Japanese and non-Japanese; Maeda students and non-Maeda students, were often held in the prelims of vale-tudo cards.

    Initially, the Gracies, Carlos and Helio in particular, were not keen on having a sportive Confederation or Federation system because they had just a single academy (in the 1950's and 1960's, the famous Academia Gracie at Av. Rio Branco, 171, in Rio's financial center), and they strictly forbid their students to teach elsewhere until the 1960's. With most of the Rio-based players under one roof, inter-school competition was uncommon, a few contests with the Fadda Academy being the notable exception. At this point, a competition circuit was not really a priority.

    In 1965 Carlson united with rival Ivan Gomes and his financial backer, and opened the first splinter school, at Rua Toneleiros, Copacabana. The new Academy failed a year later, and Carlson returned to work with his uncle Helio, at Academia Gracie. In 1968, however, Carlson made a considerable amount of money fighting undefeated Vale Tudo legend Euclides Pereira, in Salvador, Bahia. Although Carlos was defeated (decision), and Pereira’s manager saw an opportunity, and diverted part of his fighter’s purse to Carlson for the purpose of opening an independent Academy in Rio (Pereira was going to open his own school in the north-east). Carlson opened his Academy and was now in direct competition with Carlos and Helio's Academia Gracie . Rolls Gracie acted as a link between Carlson's school and Helio's school, and the competition between the two academies, and between Carlson's and Roll's students was considerable.

    At this point the flood gates opened and many of the Gracie’s students began opening schools of their own. Jaildo Gomes sold his school to Helio Gracie student (and UFC I referee) Helio Vígio. Armando Wriedt opened a school, as did João Alberto Barreto, with his brother, Álvaro.

    Suddenly, with competing academies all over the Rio area, a Federation was needed. The Gracies set to work using their considerable influence with the political class to free Jiu-Jitsu from the Pugilismo system, no easy task, as the system was controlled by influential people.

    The Rio de Janeiro Federation was formed under the name Federação de Jiu-Jitsu do Estado do Rio de Janeiro (Jiu-Jitsu Federation of the State of Rio de Janeiro), controlled by Carlos, Helio (as Technical Director), and certain elder students such as João Alberto Barreto who was instrumental in formulating the curriculum and competition rules. In addition to defininy the sportive aspect, the new federation was created to be the official certifying entity for the Gracie's system of Jiu-Jitsu, controlling all teaching certification, as well as all promotions to the rank of black belt and above; a function it retains to this day. This is where you will find the rank registration for Carlos Sr, Carlos Jr, Helio, Oswaldo, Rorion, Carlson, and even the younger generation (Kyra, Ryan, etc.)

    In the ensuing period, other Jiu-Jitsu (state) federations were formed. The Federação Mineira de Jiu-Jitsu (Minas Gerais State), for instance, was one of the first. Curiously, it was formed by students of (non-Gracie JiuJitsuka Takeo Yano, a Gracie rival with Kodokan roots. Another early federation was the Federação Cearense de Jiu-Jitsu, founded by students of Helio and Carlos Gracie such as the Hemetério brothers, and students of George Gracie and Takeo Yano (George was closer to Yano than to his brothers, due to their split in 1940's, and Yano and George shared students in the North-East region). Inter-Academy rivalry flared, with George going so far as to show up at Academia Gracie challenging any Gracie student to roll with his top student, Nahum Rabbay. This resulted in a hard fought draw with João Alberto Barreto, then the most technical Carlos-Helio student.

    Under the authority of the Gracie controlled Rio Federation, Jiu-Jitsu took a more sportive turn, easing the submission-or-draw rules, they began to award points for techniques and positions important to the Jiu-Jitsu game, such as passing the guard, mounting etc. Throws would receive points, as well. But, of course, submission continued to be the primary method of victory. This reform, championed by Rolls Gracie, who wrote the original scoring system to reflect his competition experience in amateur wrestling, Sambo and Judo, gave Jiu-jitsu precisely the foundation needed to for a distinct sport independent of the authority of the existing Judo federation, which, as an official Olympic sport, was no longer under the pugilismo entities.

    In 1985, having lost the confidence of the elites, the military government of Brazil was defeated in elections and replaced with civilian rule, overturning much of the pre-existing regulatory structure including those regulating Sport. With many left-wing politicians returning from exile and taking up positions of power, the Gracies experienced a shift in the axis of family power, when the newly Governor of Rio de Janeiro began to favor Carlos, Sr’s 2nd son Carlos Robson Gracie (older brother of Carlos Gracie, Jr), who had supported the left, and awarded him the post of Secretary of Sport of Rio de Janeiro. At this point, power at the Rio Federation began to shift away from Helio, and he found himself displaced from the position of Technical Director, in favor of (Carlos) Robson, who controls the Federation to this day. A few years later, with the rift of family trouble between them healed, Rorion and Helio founded a new federation in the United States, with Helio restored to his former position of authority over who is, and is not, permitted to teach the Gracie style. Whether this is a legitimate move or not turns on whether you accept Helio as the founder of the Gracie family style of Jiu-Jitsu (as is claimed by Gracie Torrance) or whether there are three founders (Helio, Carlos and Oswaldo) as recorded by the Rio Federation.

    Now, in Brazil, a Federação is a body controlling a sport at the state level (for instance, in Rio de Janeiro State, São Paulo State, Bahia State, etc); a Confederação is a body controlling a sport nationally, with all the federações of a sport affiliated and subordinated to the confederação of that respective sport. Decades passed before this was attempted for Jiu-Jitsu as, according to Brazilian law, three (state) federações are required to found a (national) confederação. Bureaucracy remained an obstacle, with the various states having differing regulations, competition rules, and influences.

    In 1994, shortly after the death of Carlos, Sr, the Rio Federation joined with several other state federations and founded the Confederação Brasileira de Jiu-Jitsu (Brazilian Confederation Of Jiu-Jitsu) in a move analogous to the formation of USJI (USA Judo) by consent of the existing grassroots Judo organizations (USJF and USJA). The Rio Federation was, therefore, one of the founders of the Confederação Brasileira, and became one of its affiliated state organizing bodies. Helio and Rorion had founded their own federation in America, and Brazil was firmly in the hands of Carlos Sr’s sons, with Carlos Robson controlling the Rio Federation (and the Gracie style of Jiu-Jitsu) and Carlos, Jr controlling the Confederation (and the Sport). In Brazil, all national sports (Football, etc), have “Confederação Brasileira”, and Sport Gracie Jiu-Jitsu aka BJJ was now established firmly among them.

    By the mid 90’s the American scene was exploding. Rorion and Helio had their federation (Gracie Academy), Joe Moreira started the US Federation of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (USFBJJ) and was running the first large tournaments, and Carlson Gracie founded the International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation (IBJJF) with his son Carlson Gracie, Jr at the helm. This latter organiztion was not affiliated with the Confederação Brasileira de Jiu-Jitsu while controlled by Carlson’s side of the family. The IBJJF briefly disappeared in 2001, and mysteriously reappeared in 2002 as part of the CBJJ website (the IBJJF did not get a site of its own until 2006). If this is difficult to follow, let me say it again: the IBJJF was founded in 1997 by Carlson Gracie Jr, disappeared in 2001, and reappeared as a CBJJ-associated entity in 2002 under Carlos Gracie, Jr.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  9. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    12/17/2013 3:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In this incarnation, the IBJJF is a private corporation owned by the Silveira brothers, and headed by Carlson Junior. Note that the year they began issuing certification and rank (4/1997 as indicated by the Tripp cert) is WELL AFTER the first Pan Am's and Mundials.

    Part 2
    ===
    Two years after its formation in 1994, the CBJJ collaborated with the United States Federation of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to produce the first Pan American Jiu Jitsu Championships. The event was co-sponsored by the CBJJ and the USFBJJ, and organized by veteran US tournament host Joe Moreira (the latter organization’s president). It drew more than 200 competitors primarily from Brazil and the United States to Irvine, CA. At this time the IBJJF is still Carlson, Jr’s organization, and has nothing at all to do with this tournament, or the first CBJJ Jiu-Jitsu World Championships held in Brazil later that year. For most this was part of a learning experience as the US Jiu-Jitsu scene was still developing, but Rigan Machado led fourteen Americans to medals that day, including Erik Paulson and Marc Denny (gold), and Egan Inoue (Silver). Rigan himself won the Absolute. ADCC vet and Renzo Gracie associate Sean Alvarez also won gold for America. Their interest in the CBJJ piqued by the Pan American tournament, a few players from the United States made their way to the first ever Mundial de Jiu-Jitsu (Mundials) in Brazil.

    Now, until the appearence of the Confederação Brasileira de Jiu-Jitsu Esportiva (with it's own Mundials) in 2002, the CBJJ was the sole legitimate governing body of the sport of Jiu-Jitsu for the Republic of Brazil and hosting the world championships of the sport, even in the absence of a supervising World Governing Body, was completely within the normal range of its activities. International tournaments are a vital part of any amateur sport’s calendar, which had, before the first Mundials in 1996, been a wholly Brazilian affair (the Brazilian national championships being the de facto Worlds up to this point.) As expected, Brazilian players dominated virtually every division, with American players being limited to the two gold medals won by Pan Am veterans Egan Inoue and Sean Alvarez. Carlson, Jr’s organization (IBJJF) was nowhere to be found that day, and was apparently not involved with any of it.

    From 1997 until folding in the spring of 2001, the International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation functioned as a rank certifying institution openly associated with Carlson Gracie, Jr. and operatied from their own web address ( www.frontiernet.net/~jiujitsu/ibjjf.html). In 2000 the CBJJ quietly registered two domains (www.ibjjf.com and www.ibjjf.org) and redirected them to it’s own website in Brazil. In Spring of 2002, the name “International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation” began appearing on the front page of the CBJJ website beneath the words “Confederação Brasileira de Jiu-Jitsu”. At this point this new usage of the IBJJF name was restricted to the banner on the website, implying only that that Carlson’s organization was involved. No activity of the CBJJ was attributed to the IBJJF at all, just the name as an associated group, until the IBJJF got it’s own website.

    In January of 2006 a for profit corporation called United States Jiu-Jitsu Federation, Inc was registered with the state of California, owned by Carlos Gracie Jr, with senior Gracie Barra member Andre Machado Fernandes as President. The business was registered at the same Irvine, CA address that would appear on the IBJJF’s registration forms. A few months later, ibjjf.org went online, and ibjjf.com began pointing there instead of the CBJJ website. This was not the USBJJF (that organization was yet to be created), but a new US corporate entity under which the IBJJF conducted its business. As “International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation, Inc” was the name of a business already registered to someone else (the Silveira brothers), the organization now bearing the name would function under “United States Jiu-Jitsu Federation, Inc”

    Let me be absolutely clear that there is nothing at all wrong with a private corporation making money by running Jiu-Jitsu tournaments in the United States (NAGA, for example, has been doing this productively for years). But it is also worth noting that, as a federally sanctioned governing body (and a not-for-profit) in Brazil, the CBJJ could not do so. While the IBJJF and CBJJ collaborated to produce the Pan Am and Mundial tournaments, the IBJJF was (and is) not any kind of sanctioned governing body at all, World or otherwise. In fact the international accords governing the regulation of international amateur athletic activity will not accept any sport governed by an organization structured like this (ie, to generate profit). The IBJJF is, for all intents and purposes, a for-profit side venture of CBJJ president, Carlos Gracie, Jr. The day that the United States has a National Governing Body for Jiu-Jitsu under a recognized World Governing Body has yet to arrive, IBJJF/USBJJF advertising to the contrary, not withstanding.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  10. vkirk91 is offline

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    Nov 2013
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    2

    Posted On:
    12/17/2013 4:14pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Bjj/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So this is disturbing on many levels, but not so on others.

    1. I know that people get inflated rank all of the time through the IBJJF or whatever federation they are affiliated with. My instructor know guys who were brown belts when he got his black and now are 2 degrees ahead of him.

    2. I have seen that IBJJF now requires 400 for a black belt certificate signed off by a 4th degree black belt, then they charge for stripes there after. They assign degrees after given time all of which I think is fine.

    3. I know for a fact the instructor trad has been going on since at least the 90's. My instructor was brought here by a Gracie, was told that the power bill in the apartment he shared was $400 a month in 1994 and then when he figured out he was being screwed he was threatened with immigration and told he wasn't a black belt. He didn't get his certificate till 1996 so the IBJJF doesn't recognize 4 years of being a BB and he should be a 5th not a 4th. Further more when he went to the IBJJF to try to fix this they wanted pictures from tournaments. That seems like reasonable request now but this would have been from the 80's in Rio.

    4. The real problem is this, there are way too many voices and way too many egos. There needs to be 1 not for profit ruling body that sticks to a certain set of rules. There is a lot of fuckery, but that is in all sports and ruling bodies. But as much as I love the Gracies and what they have done for martial arts they are mainly about getting paid, which everyone should be. However when you let it influence how you view the world sue your brothers over names, hold secret tests and bunch of the other crazy things that go with no one checking you these things will happen. When you get a blue belt online **** is down hill from there.
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