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  1. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2013 3:41pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    I prefer the casual approach ("here you go, you earned it"), the competition approach ("you won that tournament, here you go"), and the judo approach (zero-sum shiai plus kata).
    I have one issue with the zero-sum approach: Say I manage to get my points early on in the competition. I still have to take matches to give other people their opportunity to collect some wins. I don't have as much motivation to win as they do which could affect how the fight goes down.

    Also it kind of sucks to kill someone's chances of grading when I don't need the win, which kind of takes the shine off getting my promotion. Even worse, I've heard of one guy being accused of throwing one of his fights so his friend can win. I don't particularly believe those accusations, but I can't help but feel that there is a chance that someone could make that accuation about me if I was fighting someone I knew after I got my points and I lost.
  2. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2013 3:42pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    That must be it, It couldn't possibly be that I merely disagree with you. Or maybe your panties are in a twist because I criticized your student's weapons work?

    Well, then you test that they can kick over their heads, if that's part of your requirements. You test that they know self-defence. That's why I said the test should involve evaluating their skills, and evaluating they can apply the skills against an opponent going for the same rank. If they don't have sufficient fitness to apply the skills, then they are going to fail, aren't they? No need to make them run stairs except for a sense of accomplishment, as you stated. Fluff, ego-boost, nothing to do with the skillset they are taught.
    I don't give a crap that you down played their weapon's skill, you never saw it. That being said, if we were to be testing them on say a black belt in swordsmanship then only one of the would come close to qualifying.

    I question your scruples, not whether you disagree with me or not. This is why I point at you and ask you why you're here? You apparently don't understand the statement of the post or you're to stubborn to want to.

    You say it has nothing to do with the skill set they are taught. Since you are so knowledgeable on the skill set they are taught why don't you explain it to us? Do you know the tenets at which that have been drilled into their head? Do you understand what the exercises are for? You must have, because you disagree with them. So enlighten us.

    I'm loving your arrogance in this matter. The funny thing about this is that Erezb has contributed more to this discussion than the supposed instructor's here.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    That must be it, It couldn't possibly be that I merely disagree with you. Or maybe your panties are in a twist because I criticized your student's weapons work?

    Well, then you test that they can kick over their heads, if that's part of your requirements. You test that they know self-defence. That's why I said the test should involve evaluating their skills, and evaluating they can apply the skills against an opponent going for the same rank. If they don't have sufficient fitness to apply the skills, then they are going to fail, aren't they? No need to make them run stairs except for a sense of accomplishment, as you stated. Fluff, ego-boost, nothing to do with the skillset they are taught.
    I don't give a crap that you down played their weapon's skill, you never saw it. That being said, if we were to be testing them on say a black belt in swordsmanship then only one of the would come close to qualifying.

    I question your scruples, not whether you disagree with me or not. This is why I point at you and ask you why you're here? You apparently don't understand the statement of the post or you're to stubborn to want to.

    You say it has nothing to do with the skill set they are taught. Since you are so knowledgeable on the skill set they are taught why don't you explain it to us? Do you know the tenets at which that have been drilled into their head? Do you understand what the exercises are for? You must have, because you disagree with them. So enlighten us.

    I'm loving your arrogance in this matter. The funny thing about this is that Erezb has contributed more to this discussion than the supposed instructor's here.
  3. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2013 3:45pm


     Style: Kendo

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    NeilG who **** on your doorstep? I expect this asshattery from Crackfox and 1Pokemon2, but when did you stop being able to take what you dish out? You took a jab at his teaching and he returned the favor.
    Odd, I thought we were having a discussion on testing methods where I disagreed.
  4. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2013 5:19pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    I have one issue with the zero-sum approach: Say I manage to get my points early on in the competition. I still have to take matches to give other people their opportunity to collect some wins. I don't have as much motivation to win as they do which could affect how the fight goes down.

    Also it kind of sucks to kill someone's chances of grading when I don't need the win, which kind of takes the shine off getting my promotion. Even worse, I've heard of one guy being accused of throwing one of his fights so his friend can win. I don't particularly believe those accusations, but I can't help but feel that there is a chance that someone could make that accuation about me if I was fighting someone I knew after I got my points and I lost.
    I agree. My old judo coach told me stories of watching players take falls for their friends. A kohaku shiai format avoids most of this problem by using a non-bracketed matching system, but there's often one or two matches at the end where someone fights a round that matters for their opponent for not themselves.

    Capnmunch-- I don't mean to diss cardio. I actually liked seeing the 5k in Omega's plan. Having some bare minimums is a fine idea. I was merely pointing out that "let's do X hours of calisthenics all in 1 weekend" is fairly well-recognized as a popular testing approach in light contact TMA schools:

    • "20 hour black belt test" of a 10 year old in Don Jitsu ryu or something:


    • Yahoo Answers
      gives us an 8-hour test, an overnight test, a 5 hour test...
    • Jo Kwon Chi style has a similar test with forms, breaking, a mile run, calisthenics, sparring...
    • My old karate school has an overnight test, approximately 22 hours.

    I get it: people sweat, it's hard, so they figure it means something. But I bet if any of these schools above popped on BS.net's radar there would be pointing and laughing. I'm not trying to point and laugh at these guys nor at Omega's school. I'm not even saying it's bullshido. But isn't it weird that when Omega has his students do some some forms, push-ups, and one-step self-defense it's a revolutionary Bullshido-approved testing modality that produces people "clearly not to be fucked with"?

    As to your (Capnmunch's) other point, "not everyone will be able to lift heavy weights", well, setting bodyweight-scaled standards avoids that problem. Just off the top of my head you could require 3 pull-ups and 1xBW squat. That's about on par with a 30:00 5k. But again, the question is why you're having them do all this stuff. If it's to prove their fighting fitness, well, what's wrong with sparring or competition? Then we don't need to make up a bunch of arbitrary fitness benchmarks. (Don't get me wrong, I love arbitrary benchmarks, I ponder fitness benchmarks a lot.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega
    I have him on my ignore list because he's generally full of ****. I'm glad nothing has changed.
    Aw, love you too. Smooches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega
    In the past we've complained about fat, overweight and generally non skilled people who've gotten their blackbelts. People who couldn't kick over their head. People who knew nothing of self-defense. Some arts specialize in specific areas. They have ways to test. I've even been on the receiving end of the "Hey, you're skilled enough, or you won the competition here's your black belt" end of things. That always left me empty inside. That's how I obtained my first blackbelt.
    Part of the point I was trying to make is that the training, not the testing, should prevent out-of-shape and incompetent people from attaining rank. If someone is training and it's still not coming together, they're not ready for whatever reason, then don't recommend them for the next rank. Tell them what they need to improve, whether it's kicking above their head, being fat, whatever. Then the test can remain quite simple.

    But, and I'm quite serious here, if the casual "hey here's your belt" approach didn't make you feel good, then I entirely understand you choosing the more formal and complex approach for your students.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  5. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2013 8:15pm


     Style: Kendo

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I question your scruples, not whether you disagree with me or not.
    I'm not clear on why my scruples are in question, I merely joined the discussion and disagreed with you.
    You say it has nothing to do with the skill set they are taught. Since you are so knowledgeable on the skill set they are taught why don't you explain it to us?
    The key is in the name, "skill set". You teach them skills which require a certain level of fitness to execute. So why not just evaluate them on that execution? I guess you can argue that being fit is simply a requirement for the grade, and as you set the requirements I can't argue with your particular test. But the question you posed is, should your test serve as an example for what a test should be according to the general standard of this forum. So that's just where I disagree, and I've already stated what I think should be in a test, so I'll leave the argument there.
  6. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2013 8:43pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    I'm not clear on why my scruples are in question, I merely joined the discussion and disagreed with you.
    The key is in the name, "skill set". You teach them skills which require a certain level of fitness to execute. So why not just evaluate them on that execution? I guess you can argue that being fit is simply a requirement for the grade, and as you set the requirements I can't argue with your particular test. But the question you posed is, should your test serve as an example for what a test should be according to the general standard of this forum. So that's just where I disagree, and I've already stated what I think should be in a test, so I'll leave the argument there.
    I question your scruples because you should know the beliefs here on bullshido or you don't. If you're chiming in on this thread then I assume you do. You think this is about fitness and that's only partly the situation.

    You also dismissed the weapon's pre-requisite before knowing what the pre requisite are. You dismiss the entire video because you dismissed that part of the video. So yes, I question your scruples. How do you consider yourself a moral person when you don't have the integrity to grind through the techniques? You consider it okay to dismiss everything and disagree with everything without knowing what the purpose of the program is?

    I put together this test as a possibility of a general format that others could possibly follow. This kung fu system is not better than any others, it's different. I pressure tested my criteria. I do this for SAMBO too. For Jiu Jitsu I just have my guys compete.

    You can disagree with me all you want but at least have some integrity to come from a point of knowledge not assumption.
  7. jspeedy is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2013 8:55pm


     Style: FMA

    MY thoughts: A grueling test is a good thing compared to the easy guaranteed half assed approach some of us have seen. If nothing else with a trying bb test, if all the other training is half assed at least the test will provide some measure of quality control. THe total pussies and those who aren't really dedicated won't even attempt the test thus assuring that at least the bbs you have are somewhat dedicated and have some measure of perseverance.

    I think this is what Omega is going for on this one, if all schools even the shitty ones had some basic fitness requirements to earn a bb we'd probably have a significant number less bbs in this country. You set a benchmark and the majority of bbs have to attain it, there could be few exceptions for the disabled on a person to person basis but overall a male at bb level should be able to run a 5k at some point on his road to bb, the same goes for other basic fitness requirements.

    Not sure I agree every school should require weapons, striking, and grappling. It certainly would be best. But if your school only teaches striking than keep only the striking requirements ect. You start making everybody do everything and you might get a lot of crappling and shitty weapons training at otherwise legit schools. of course, you could argue that some limited grappling is better than none, same for weapons.

    One example I can think of is a JJJ school I visited on occasion. Daily training was relatively easy and compliant. Sparring happened once a month or so (same for rolling) and some limited kendo was incorporated. For the bb test, the student had to demonstrate numerous techniques ranging from karate kata, judo throws, and traditional JJJ techniques, than one step style attacks were given much like Oega describes and judo and JJJ techniques were demonstrated by the student. The test ended with 30 straight mins of sparring; several rounds of standup with a fresh opponent every 2 or 3 mins, a couple rounds of striking w/ takedown allowed which led to randori and a couple rounds of kendo. My point? The test was grueling for the students who weren't really conditioned for it but the few that stayed at the school long enough to reach bb stuck it out through the test and earned their belt. The school may not have been top notch but their bbs did have some heart. IMO this is much better than a bb hand out. I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue otherwise. At a quality school a gauntlet style test may not be necessary but at a poor quality school it may the the only meritorious thing a bb has done.
  8. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2013 9:38pm


     Style: Kendo

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I question your scruples because you should know the beliefs here on bullshido or you don't. If you're chiming in on this thread then I assume you do. You think this is about fitness and that's only partly the situation.
    Aside from my tossed-off comment about the weapons (which was really not all that fair just based on a few seconds of video), I wasn't really addressing anything but the fitness end of it. I know you're a competent guy, I assume you are testing the skills and fighting ability of your students in the test. My disagreement comes from making grueling fitness requirements part of a test that should be about your ability to fight with the skills you've been taught. I expect you will argue that the level of fitness is required to meet your expectations, fair enough. Just not my view.
  9. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2013 10:22pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    Aside from my tossed-off comment about the weapons (which was really not all that fair just based on a few seconds of video), I wasn't really addressing anything but the fitness end of it. I know you're a competent guy, I assume you are testing the skills and fighting ability of your students in the test. My disagreement comes from making grueling fitness requirements part of a test that should be about your ability to fight with the skills you've been taught. I expect you will argue that the level of fitness is required to meet your expectations, fair enough. Just not my view.

    Far from it. That's not why I make them do that. I do it for them to show the their resolve and their spirit, it tends to scare away the meek.

    For the record, I got the results today. They passed their test.
  10. erezb is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/05/2013 9:22am


     Style: Boxing,Kickboxing K1

    What is the shortest period of time someone earned a black belt in your school? And if it is not too much trouble, could you up load some advanced MT pads or focus mitts work?
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