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  1. #31
    ghost55's Avatar
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    Damn, I wish I could train at Omega's gym. That test looks seriously grueling. Anyone that passes is clearly not someone to be fucked with.

  2. #32
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    Hours-long tests of calisthenics, forms, pre-set self-defense responses, and light sparring are par for the course for TMA/bullshido/non-alive/McDojo/whatever schools' black belt tests. That's not to say they're bad. It's just entirely normal for in light-contact karate/kung-fu schools.

    I'm with NeilG. The hours of conditioning and demonstration is largely fluff, because what we're doing is trying to formalize and complicate a pretty straightforward procedure: instructor thinks you're ready, so here's the rank. I prefer the casual approach ("here you go, you earned it"), the competition approach ("you won that tournament, here you go"), and the judo approach (zero-sum shiai plus kata). I don't particularly *mind* the conditioning element--physicality is important--but to tout it as some sort of newfangled Bullshido-approved amazingness is eyebrow-raising.

    I feel like a Bullshido.net black belt test would involve an amateur ring fight, a judo-style zero-sum shiai, and a weightlifting meet, and at the end you don't get a black belt, you just get the experience of having fought in a ring, fought in a tournament, and lifted weights.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Hours-long tests of calisthenics, forms, pre-set self-defense responses, and light sparring are par for the course for TMA/bullshido/non-alive/McDojo/whatever schools' black belt tests. That's not to say they're bad. It's just entirely normal for in light-contact karate/kung-fu schools.

    I'm with NeilG. The hours of conditioning and demonstration is largely fluff, because what we're doing is trying to formalize and complicate a pretty straightforward procedure: instructor thinks you're ready, so here's the rank. I prefer the casual approach ("here you go, you earned it"), the competition approach ("you won that tournament, here you go"), and the judo approach (zero-sum shiai plus kata). I don't particularly *mind* the conditioning element--physicality is important--but to tout it as some sort of newfangled Bullshido-approved amazingness is eyebrow-raising.

    I feel like a Bullshido.net black belt test would involve an amateur ring fight, a judo-style zero-sum shiai, and a weightlifting meet, and at the end you don't get a black belt, you just get the experience of having fought in a ring, fought in a tournament, and lifted weights.
    The whole problem started with the erosion of the black belt idea because you had money driven trainers that for marketing reasons gave away black belts to kids, and to undeserving adults. So the idea of a standard for a black belt is actually a good quality assurance protocol. Why diss having a fight experience? why diss physical ability? It's not like those caveats of the test are instead of good technique and the regular black belt trad MA stuff.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Hours-long tests of calisthenics, forms, pre-set self-defense responses, and light sparring are par for the course for TMA/bullshido/non-alive/McDojo/whatever schools' black belt tests. That's not to say they're bad. It's just entirely normal for in light-contact karate/kung-fu schools.

    I'm with NeilG. The hours of conditioning and demonstration is largely fluff, because what we're doing is trying to formalize and complicate a pretty straightforward procedure: instructor thinks you're ready, so here's the rank. I prefer the casual approach ("here you go, you earned it"), the competition approach ("you won that tournament, here you go"), and the judo approach (zero-sum shiai plus kata). I don't particularly *mind* the conditioning element--physicality is important--but to tout it as some sort of newfangled Bullshido-approved amazingness is eyebrow-raising.

    I feel like a Bullshido.net black belt test would involve an amateur ring fight, a judo-style zero-sum shiai, and a weightlifting meet, and at the end you don't get a black belt, you just get the experience of having fought in a ring, fought in a tournament, and lifted weights.
    Sounds like you're in a much better area than me for MA schools, or maybe I just had bad luck and went to the wrong places. Over many years of MA practice, including practice at three light contact karate schools, and in years of taking my kids around to different schools, the 15-20 minutes testing time per candidate was what I saw. Maybe we're talking about different things -- the time testing an entire group collectively might have taken an hour or longer, but to the extent each candidate was scrutinized separately, breaking, sparring, etc., it took no longer than about 15 minutes each.

    I don't have a problem with the casual approach you described, if the instructor prefers it (tho at least for kids, I think it doesnt amount to as much recognition or reward). But IMO, if you're going to hold a formal test to award a black belt, each candidate deserves individual attention, it should test a variety of skills and take more than a few pro forma minutes each, and when its over there should be no doubt it was a challenging test. I'd say the testing shown in these videos meet those requirements.

    Question -- if you don't think testing aerobic fitness is worthwhile then why have them lift weights? Potentially, each candidate can demonstrate a high level of aerobic fitness, but not every candidate will be able to lift heavy weight regardless of effort.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Sounds like you're in a much better area than me for MA schools, or maybe I just had bad luck and went to the wrong places. Over many years of MA practice, including practice at three light contact karate schools, and in years of taking my kids around to different schools, the 15-20 minutes testing time per candidate was what I saw. Maybe we're talking about different things -- the time testing an entire group collectively might have taken an hour or longer, but to the extent each candidate was scrutinized separately, breaking, sparring, etc., it took no longer than about 15 minutes each.

    I don't have a problem with the casual approach you described, if the instructor prefers it (tho at least for kids, I think it doesnt amount to as much recognition or reward). But IMO, if you're going to hold a formal test to award a black belt, each candidate deserves individual attention, it should test a variety of skills and take more than a few pro forma minutes each, and when its over there should be no doubt it was a challenging test. I'd say the testing shown in these videos meet those requirements.

    Question -- if you don't think testing aerobic fitness is worthwhile then why have them lift weights? Potentially, each candidate can demonstrate a high level of aerobic fitness, but not every candidate will be able to lift heavy weight regardless of effort.

    I am glad you quoted 1point2. I have him on my ignore list because he's generally full of ****. I'm glad nothing has changed.

    I am sure that the reason him and NeilG down play this type of testing is because they themselves are incapable of participating in a test because it would show their true character or lack there of. Why either of them are here is beyond me.

    What they call fluff I call a sense of achievement. As I told each one of the candidates "Pass or fail nobody can take this day away from you." and they were happy about that. In the past we've complained about fat, overweight and generally non skilled people who've gotten their blackbelts. People who couldn't kick over their head. People who knew nothing of self-defense. Some arts specialize in specific areas. They have ways to test. I've even been on the receiving end of the "Hey, you're skilled enough, or you won the competition here's your black belt" end of things. That always left me empty inside. That's how I obtained my first blackbelt.

    So I took the complaining that I've seen so many times on these boards and I put it to the test. Like normal we have the mixture of opinions. I did not expect it out of two supposed instructors.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    I can't speak for the entire forum but I believe if Bullshido could give some criteria to what a "Black Belt" test might look like I believe this might be it.
    Now, explain where you got bullshido approved from.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I am sure that the reason him and NeilG down play this type of testing is because they themselves are incapable of participating in a test because it would show their true character or lack there of.
    That must be it, It couldn't possibly be that I merely disagree with you. Or maybe your panties are in a twist because I criticized your student's weapons work?

    In the past we've complained about fat, overweight and generally non skilled people who've gotten their blackbelts. People who couldn't kick over their head. People who knew nothing of self-defense.
    Well, then you test that they can kick over their heads, if that's part of your requirements. You test that they know self-defence. That's why I said the test should involve evaluating their skills, and evaluating they can apply the skills against an opponent going for the same rank. If they don't have sufficient fitness to apply the skills, then they are going to fail, aren't they? No need to make them run stairs except for a sense of accomplishment, as you stated. Fluff, ego-boost, nothing to do with the skillset they are taught.

  8. #38
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    I think the physical conditioning testing is almost as important as the technique stuff. All the technique in the world is useless if you are collapsed on the floor wheezing 30sec into the fight.

  9. #39
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    NeilG who **** on your doorstep? I expect this asshattery from Crackfox and 1Pokemon2, but when did you stop being able to take what you dish out? You took a jab at his teaching and he returned the favor.

  10. #40
    You have to work the look. supporting member
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    All the technique in the world is useless if you are collapsed on the floor wheezing 30sec into the fight.
    I suppose you could make that a condition of the test. If they collapse 30 seconds into a fight - flunk them. You could even make them go several rounds if you felt that would provide a good assessment.

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