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  1. #1
    goodlun's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    William Murphy of Florida is a jerk

    http://www.bjjee.com/bjj-news/petiti...ions-for-kids/

    Some ass hat named William Murphy of Florida is an ass hat that wants to petition to us congress calls to ban submissions for kids under 12.
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

  2. #2
    Bullshido's Greatest Ninja staff
    plasma's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I saw that. I would be more upset if I thought the U.S. Congress was capable of passing anything. Also Kid's Judo is already this way.

  3. #3
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A large national industry has emerged that charges money for children to engage in MMA
    Wha?

    Where's the kiddie MMA, exactly?

    You know I have mixed feelings about young kids and subs. I think they should learn, drill, and practice them in class up to a certain intensity.

    But they should stay in class, like they do in Judo, until a certain formative age/development is obtained. We want these kinds to be long-term students, that won't happen if they get hurt early on and the highest probability for that is in a comp with relaxed rules.

    A slight restriction on closers is, I think, good for the safety of the kids and will ensure they're still around after 12, where they can start taking more risks (I'm sure most parents will agree).

    I don't think they should be allowed in competitions because there are too many risk factors. These are not fully developed bodies. Certain injuries or breaks in areas like growth plates while at that age will cause permanent dysfunction later on (I should know I have such injuries).

    I don't think we need the petition, I think the BJJ community should come to this conclusion on their own, just like Judo did.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 8/14/2015 11:32am at .

  4. #4
    goodlun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Wha?

    Where's the kiddie MMA, exactly?

    You know I have mixed feelings about young kids and subs. I think they should learn, drill, and practice them in class up to a certain intensity.

    But they should stay in class, like they do in Judo, until a certain formative age/development is obtained. We want these kinds to be long-term students, that won't happen if they get hurt early on and the highest probability for that is in a comp with relaxed rules.

    A slight restriction on closers is, I think, good for the safety of the kids and will ensure they're still around after 12, where they can start taking more risks (I'm sure most parents will agree).

    I don't think they should be allowed in competitions because there are too many risk factors. These are not fully developed bodies. Certain injuries or breaks in areas like growth plates while at that age will cause permanent dysfunction later on (I should know I have such injuries).

    I don't think we need the petition, I think the BJJ community should come to this conclusion on their own, just like Judo did.
    Just have your kid do Judo.
    of
    Have them not compete in BJJ.
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

  5. #5
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Just have your kid do Judo.
    of
    Have them not compete in BJJ.
    Here's the question though, a "greater good" question, not thinking as a parent but as someone who wants to see more kids in BJJ (not fewer).

    If the rules in Judo are in place to protect kids, how many injuries/deaths have been prevented because of that? Is it better for BJJ to follow their example, or tread in riskier waters and hope things turn out ok, just to be different?

    It is only a matter of time before someone's kid gets killed/mangled/braindead from BJJ competition, and I think it would only take one or a handful maybe to force major changes, for legal and political reasons.

    What would happen to BJJ the first time a younger kid (under 12) dies or gets seriously hurt? I think it would seriously harm the associations involved, you might see a mass exodus of kids from not only competition but BJJ in general.

    Maybe Judo IS just better for that age.

    For some comparable stats, this video says there were from 1983-2009, 108 Judo-related deaths in Japan in the 12-18 age group. Being Japan, judo deaths are probably far less shocking, but elsewhere especially in the US...if this sort of thing became prominent it would hurt the sport, and future kiddie injuries do I think have the potential to hurt the sport.

    Don't we want to prevent that? There is definitely a lot of growing concern even in Japan about the dangers of judo to kids vs. the benefits...just watched this one the other day regarding compulsory judo for kids. The key here also seems to be teaching kids the proper things at proper times until they're physically ready. If they're taught improperly or not ready...

    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 8/14/2015 5:19pm at .

  6. #6
    Permalost's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    What would happen to BJJ the first time a younger kid (under 12) dies or gets seriously hurt? I think it would seriously harm the associations involved, you might see a mass exodus of kids from not only competition but BJJ in general.

    Maybe Judo IS just better for that age.
    I'm not sure being thrown is safer than being submitted, especially for kids who haven't mastered safe throwing or ukemi.

  7. #7
    goodlun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    What would happen to BJJ the first time a younger kid (under 12) dies or gets seriously hurt? I think it would seriously harm the associations involved, you might see a mass exodus of kids from not only competition but BJJ in general.
    I have yet to see any data that suggest that its dangerous nor have we seen any deaths or life threating injuries at competition.
    Looks to me BJJ even with its submissions is safer than Judo.
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

  8. #8

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Let's find a better solution - even if I am a jerk.

    75% of all IBJJF World Champions from 1996 through 2015 at the black belt level did not even start their BJJ training until after the age of 12.
    The Gracie Worlds, which is ran by the pre-eminent submission only tournament for adults, has also adopted the "no submission to win a match" ruleset for kids under the age of 12.
    Some members of the Gracie family have signed the petition.
    Some tournaments let teen-agers referee the kids matches.
    Only NAGA requires the referees take a test to be referees
    (with the IBJJF for instance, if you pay $80 and sit through a 3 hour rule class with no test, you can be an IBJJF certified referee even if you are a white belt).
    I've been involved with wrestling for 30 years, with Judo for 24 years, and with BJJ for over 20 years.
    I'm ranked 3rd degree black belt with the IBJJF, and 3rd degree black belt under Rickson Gracie's Federation.
    I don't claim to know what the ultimate answer is,
    but I do know that I am tired of seeing fake grappling instructors teach kids moves off of youtube, throw a bunch of those kids in a crap tournament,
    walk home with some medals (and some injured kids) and then post on the Internet all the pictures of the kids trophies and medals to attract more unsuspecting parents.
    The qualified BJJ Black Belt instructors and well controlled tournaments are not the problem.
    The problem is, you don't have to be a qualified submission grappling coach to open an after school submission grappling or after school MMA program,
    and ANYONE can run a tournament.
    So, I am very open to other forms of regulation to keep the worst promoters from doing their worst, at the expense of the kids and the parents (and if the parents could tell what was real or not, we wouldn't have all the Internet posts about the fake grappling BJJ teachers lately).
    Regarding the title of the post, "William Murphy is a jerk", that is one allegation that I can't deny, because sometimes I am.

  9. #9
    DCS's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    John Danaher has recently wrote the following:

    Youth training: I always enjoy training talented and dedicated youngsters. It is incredibly rewarding to see how quickly they pick up the skills of the sport and express themselves through those skills.

    One aspect of youth training that I have always had misgivings about however, is the notion of teaching submissions to children.
    Obviously there is a danger to the use of submission holds. A sensible question to ask is this - is it appropriate to teach submissions to very young children.

    I understand different people have different viewpoints on this matter. My own approach is teach only positional moves to very young children. I am not in favor of teaching submissions to children below the age of twelve in group children's classes. This may seem a very conservative approach, but I believe it is in the best interests of the sport.

    Some of the worst incidents I have witnessed in my time in jiu jitsu involve children or very young teens being put in situations where the danger posed by submissions used against them was greater than their knowledge of how to defend themselves, and the environment competitive enough that they felt compelled not to submit. Sometimes this compulsion came from overzealous parents (some of whom ought to be ashamed of themselves 😡) or just a situation where a young student clearly did not have the requisite knowledge to defend themselves in a high pressure situation - I remember an EBI where a young teenage girl was caught in a heel hook that she had no idea how to defend but felt the pressure not to submit in a televised event in front of a big audience and was horribly injured - thankfully they have since banned heel hooks for juveniles in EBI.

    Most worrisome are strangleholds. These are potentially fatal in the wrong hands. I just don't think it is wise to be teaching young children strangleholds. The idea of large numbers of unsupervised children walking around with knowledge of how to strangle someone does not appeal to me.

    I believe judo does not allow submission holds up to a certain age and they have an an excellent safety record for children since 1882. I believe this may be appropriate for jiu jitsu also. The sport can offer so much with positional skills to very young students that they can spend years learning excellent skills that will make learning submissions much easier when they get a little older.

    I do make exceptions for advanced children who are learning outside of regular group children's class. If they show an appropriate level of maturity I will teach them all submissions including strangles - but they can only use them when training with adults or teenagers, not with other young children who are unfamiliar with them.

    In this way I believe I can teach a safe class, avoid teaching potentially fatal knowledge to young people who don't yet understand the seriousness of that knowledge, get away from those dreadful situations where young children get hurt because they feel compelled not to give in to a harmful hold, yet not hold back advanced children with deep ambitions in the sport.

    Here, young Mikey Wilson, one of my favorite young students (just ten yours old), practices his strangles with his senpai ("big brother") Nicky Ryan, who at fifteen, learns all submissions. This is a good example of a safe way to teach very talented children that goes beyond a standard classroom setting, where I believe a more conservative approach is better for the long term interests of the sport.
    Source: https://www.facebook.com/john.danahe...94625354286523

  10. #10
    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours. Join us... or die
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    John Danaher has recently wrote the following:



    Source: https://www.facebook.com/john.danahe...94625354286523
    Well reasoned and I agree, of course.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

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