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  1. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 3:17pm

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     Style: MMA

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by crappler View Post
    well, that is the first time I have ever heard of a kick you are to use while holding an opponent, but whatever...
    It's a situation that tends to come up a lot more if you're opponent has a gi on. With the clothing grips, you can clinch up while further apart. It's just like holding and hitting with knees in the clinch.
    One of the most satisfying KO's I ever delivered was a front kick from a double lapel grip while sparring with a guy in college.
    The fool thinks himself immortal,
    If he hold back from battle;
    But old age will grant him no truce,
    Even if spears spare him.
  2. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 3:26pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    If your point is that some people can throw credible double kicks, ok sure, but that's BILL WALLACE, not a mere mortal. Maybe Bruce Lee could do it too. ;^]
    But this is still not a match which is decided by such a kick, as in a KO or TKO.
    A nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its laws made by cowards and its wars fought by fools. ― Thucydides
  3. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 3:37pm

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     Style: 血鷲

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    It's a situation that tends to come up a lot more if you're opponent has a gi on. With the clothing grips, you can clinch up while further apart. It's just like holding and hitting with knees in the clinch.
    One of the most satisfying KO's I ever delivered was a front kick from a double lapel grip while sparring with a guy in college.
    One of my most hilarious double-lapel-kicky things happened about a year after I'd started at my first nightclub (1984). The idiot in question was a bit weighty and kept trying to get his hands around my throat after I'd refused him entry due to a previous fight he'd been in at the venue.

    Stiff-arming him away with a double-lapel grab on his jacket, I was also trying to front-kick him away, just to maintain distance. Being strong in the arms, he got my elbows bent and closed range, just as the kick was coming up. Because of the suddenly-closed distance, what was intended as a push-away kick aimed at his c. or g. became (quite unintentionally) a shin that went straight up into his sack.

    Having nothing behind me, momentum pushed me backward into a weird tomoe-nage kind of backroll, but not full-circle--only far enough to have the imbecile land beside me on the sidewalk with a groan. I immediately went to transition for side-control, but found that it wasn't necessary: he was motionlessly-fetal, clutching his groin and wheezing.

    Accidents never happen in a perfect world.
  4. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 3:39pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    But this is still not a match which is decided by such a kick, as in a KO or TKO.
    I sort of disagree that double kick kept the much heavier guy away. Had he been able to get inside and stay inside the match would have ended pretty badly for Bill Wallace.

    I think I can rummage up some videos of Benny the Jet doing some good old double kicking too.
  5. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 3:46pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    If a knockout is your goal, then limiting to motion of your adversary's head is counterproductive. True, with good head-motion he can evade or slip your combinations, but it is also the rapid snapping motion of his head when you hit the sweet spot that rattles the brain. If you look at vids (especially slo-mo) of--for example--some of the more accomplished boxing KOs, the rapid 90-degree rotation of the head (in the case of, say, a nice hook to the jaw) is what puts the recipient to sleep. This rapid-displacement of the braincase--rather than just the impact by itself--causes the shock-reaction in the part of the brain that determines level of consciousness.

    Meanwhile, clinching the body can be useful--but it may be just as useful to your opponent, and getting the leg off the ground while in a clinch had better lead to something like a very fast osotogari, or you may well end up in considerable trouble.
    I agree that the rotational force of a punch is a major factor in causing a brain concussion, and that it could well be counterproductive to stop that rotation, if you're hoping for a KO based on brain trauma.

    Thinking back to my karate classes when I was told that I was better off holding my opponent when I punched him, I don't think the point was necessarily to knock him out but to make the technique more effective in general, which also means improving your chances of landing it. Also, a punch can do other damage to the head that can determine the outcome, such as breaking the jaw, cheekbone, etc., and the mechanics there are different, as well as the mechanics of body damage.

    I wouldn't clinch with someone larger than me, or with anyone at all unless I were willing to bet that I'm the better grappler.
    A nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its laws made by cowards and its wars fought by fools. ― Thucydides
  6. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 4:01pm

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     Style: 血鷲

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    I agree that the rotational force of a punch is a major factor in causing a brain concussion, and that it could well be counterproductive to stop that rotation, if you're hoping for a KO based on brain trauma.

    Thinking back to my karate classes when I was told that I was better off holding my opponent when I punched him, I don't think the point was necessarily to knock him out but to make the technique more effective in general, which also means improving your chances of landing it. Also, a punch can do other damage to the head that can determine the outcome, such as breaking the jaw, cheekbone, etc., and the mechanics there are different, as well as the mechanics of body damage.

    I wouldn't clinch with someone larger than me, or with anyone at all unless I were willing to bet that I'm the better grappler.
    Percentages. I'll assume you are aware that--due to the adrenaline dump that occurs during an altercation--broken jaws, noses and cheekbones are not necessarily fight-enders. (As you are doubtless aware, there's plenty of footage of fighters continuing to battle after receiving such injuries.)

    If you're in danger, the best bests, if you can't GTFO, are KOs (either by strike or by throw), chokeouts or something like an effective armbar. Strikes from the clinch can, however, be useful for diversion/positioning setup purposes. They might conceivably take the fight out of somebody who's unused to being struck, but (again, percentages) it's best not to assume that this will occur.
    Last edited by Vieux Normand; 1/07/2014 4:05pm at .
  7. Dr_Awesome is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 4:35pm


     Style: Hapkido

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Disagree.
    A double kick, in which the foot does not touch the ground again even for a quick bounce, may be great for point sparring, but the second kick will lack enough power to be used confidently as a combat technique because there's little or no hip or body pivot movement behind it. A lot of guys will just eat a kick like that and keep coming. See if you can find a video of a full contact match that was decided by the use of such a kick.
    Disagree^2

    Definitely not enough power to KO, but when your opponent comes in and has a foot in his face, his head moves back (either from his own reflexes or the kick) but his body keeps coming forward. I've put people on their asses with this a number of times. You don't always need power to be effective.
  8. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 4:50pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Percentages. I'll assume you are aware that--due to the adrenaline dump that occurs during an altercation--broken jaws, noses and cheekbones are not necessarily fight-enders. If you're in danger, the best bests if you can't GTFO are KOs (either by strike or by throw), chokeouts or something like an effective armbar. Strikes from the clinch can, however, be useful for diversion/positioning setup purposes. They might conceivably take the fight out of somebody who's unused to being struck, but (again, percentages) it's best not to assume that they will.
    Yeah, a lot depends on who you're dealing with. A broken jaw, nose etc., should not be assumed to be a fight ender, but its also true that not everybody will fight thru one of those. I've seen a fight ended for a lot less, but have also seen guys who can take a lot of punishment and keep on coming.

    At 5'8" and 165 lbs, I'm in a tough spot tactically. The conventional wisdom is that against a bigger guy I should keep my distance and punch/kick, but its true that the best fight enders are throws, chokes and arm/leg locks, which require you to move in. That's why I got into BJJ even when my MA friends at the time were calling it "dogfighting."
    A nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its laws made by cowards and its wars fought by fools. ― Thucydides
  9. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 5:05pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    Disagree^2

    Definitely not enough power to KO, but when your opponent comes in and has a foot in his face, his head moves back (either from his own reflexes or the kick) but his body keeps coming forward. I've put people on their asses with this a number of times. You don't always need power to be effective.
    Let's just chalk it up to a difference in personal fighting tactics. As I mentioned in my discussion with VN above, I'm not a particularly big guy, and so I focus a lot on maximizing power in my striking technique. I'm concerned that if my kick lacks power, given that its not a pile driver to begin with, when I put a foot in someone's face without much behind it my leg is going to get grabbed or its going to get knocked aside and I'm going to get blitzed; particularly by someone whose regular game includes ducking under it for the takedown.
    A nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its laws made by cowards and its wars fought by fools. ― Thucydides
  10. zerosum79 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2014 9:49pm


     Style: Hapkido/Aiki Jujutsu/ BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am not sure if my account is allowed to post yet but I am going to try again.

    I think the major benefit of an outside crescent kick is they come from a weird angle and can be used as a stunning blow transitioning into a combo. If you are standing where your opponent has the same foot forward and you are fairly close, an outside crescent kick is coming from an unexpected direction and is not easily seen. If you are fast and flexible enough to get above someone's shoulder this is a pretty unexpected move. (can also be executed as a hook kick) You are not going to knock someone out so much as get that stun going to start a combo of punching or a takedown.

    I've never found much use for the inside crescent kick but was impressed by the video in this thread showing it more as a snapping kick.

    Best,
    zero
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