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  1. Ero-Sennin is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2014 10:59pm


     Style: BJJ/MMA, Boxing, Karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post

    One other point. Rifles are machines and any machine can break, especially when abused. Modern firearms typically function well but it's eye opening to get into a situation like mine where you're constantly dealing with broken guns. You know all those people out there sitting smugly in their confidence that "My Glawk ain't never gonna' break cause mutherfuckin' Glawks don't break?" Well, Glawks do in fact break. lol.
    Interesting stuff. I guess my search will be more on manufacturer/builder then when I finally decide to fork out the money for something. My own philosophy tends to be "it's the shooter, not the weapon." Unless of course you have something that can't hit 100 MOA 2 feet in front of you : P). To believe your firearm can't break due to brand is asinine. Anything can break, it just depends on how fast and easily it can break and sometimes random **** happens (often). I don't expect I'll be chopping wood with a rifle or anything, and I've always practiced upkeep and correct operating procedures so luckily I've never run into too bad a situation. The scope is usually the most delicate object. Learning how the dope can change from a little knock will make you keep your rifle safe at all times!

    Only time I've ever damaged a wagon was when an MRAP drove over our saw gunners SAW and my M4 on a night insert. Fucking jackass, Only cracked the stock on my M4 though. Fucker started moving when we were still sweeping for IEDs and unloading the truck in the area, before he was told to move. Almost ran me over too. I can only imagine the stuff you've seen from people though. I bet it pisses you off.
  2. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/14/2014 8:16am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ero-Sennin View Post
    My own philosophy tends to be "it's the shooter, not the weapon."
    I tend to agree, generally speaking. I've made the point here before that a guitar virtuoso can make a $10 guitar sound pretty damn good.

    The problem is that some of the phenomena a shooter may experience at long range are influenced by build practices. The way bore curvature is aligned for example, doesn't effect accuracy (group size) but can effect shot placement in relation to your point of aim. The effect will be consistent as long as the rifle is accurate otherwise. If the shooter has worked his rifle in properly he'll know if he needs to make how many ever clicks of windage adjustment at whatever yardage. So, he can compensate for any misalignment without even understanding the factors he's dealing with.

    He will be unable to distinguish between the effect of spin drift and the effect of misaligned bore curvature, but that doesn't mean that effect isn't present. And that's the type of **** that makes me lose sleep. I don't want that misalignment to be there even if the shooter will never know it's there in the first place. I want to build the best rifle that I know how to build.

    People spend a lot of money for custom rifle work. If you're not anal as **** about your methods, you shouldn't be in the business of precision rifle building in my opinion. A lot of builders know about the issues I'm discussing but choose to ignore it because they say it doesn't matter. But it matters if attention to detail is important to you. Everything matters. And if builders are letting this **** slide, what else are they letting slide?
  3. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/14/2014 9:25am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Is accuracy group size, or is precision group size ? I thought accuracy was placing the round where you want it to go, precision being repeatability. Related, but different.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/14/2014 9:31am

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Is accuracy group size, or is precision group size ? I thought accuracy was placing the round where you want it to go, precision being repeatability. Related, but different.
    Yes, your definition is correct. I used the wrong terminology.
  5. Ero-Sennin is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/14/2014 1:02pm


     Style: BJJ/MMA, Boxing, Karate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    The problem is that some of the phenomena a shooter may experience at long range are influenced by build practices. The way bore curvature is aligned for example, doesn't effect accuracy (group size) but can effect shot placement in relation to your point of aim. The effect will be consistent as long as the rifle is accurate otherwise. If the shooter has worked his rifle in properly he'll know if he needs to make how many ever clicks of windage adjustment at whatever yardage. So, he can compensate for any misalignment without even understanding the factors he's dealing with.

    He will be unable to distinguish between the effect of spin drift and the effect of misaligned bore curvature, but that doesn't mean that effect isn't present. And that's the type of **** that makes me lose sleep. I don't want that misalignment to be there even if the shooter will never know it's there in the first place. I want to build the best rifle that I know how to build.

    People spend a lot of money for custom rifle work. If you're not anal as **** about your methods, you shouldn't be in the business of precision rifle building in my opinion. A lot of builders know about the issues I'm discussing but choose to ignore it because they say it doesn't matter. But it matters if attention to detail is important to you. Everything matters. And if builders are letting this **** slide, what else are they letting slide?
    Sounds like you're describing a rifle that you could draw a mathematical equation for where the round will place on target and it be consistent and exact, every time. I can't say I've run into this problem or seen anyone have this problem in my own experience as far as precision rifles go. I do remember one guy who had gotten kicked back in bootcamp twice during the shooting range because that armorer found out his barrel was bent the third time he failed qual (I ran into him in the fleet a year or so later).

    If I were to get a custom made rifle and was anal about these sorts of things, I can definitely see your point about. Overall I don't think it matters as much to the shooter as long as he has good data up to max effective. You just need reliable as a shooter, not exact. Some of our guys were able to hit beyond the 1,000 yard max eff. of the M40A5 in country a couple of times. I get the impression you see custom work and how it sometimes slack and say, "Integrity and professionalism mother fucker, where is it?"
  6. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/14/2014 6:50pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ero-Sennin View Post
    Sounds like you're describing a rifle that you could draw a mathematical equation for where the round will place on target and it be consistent and exact, every time. I can't say I've run into this problem or seen anyone have this problem in my own experience as far as precision rifles go. I do remember one guy who had gotten kicked back in bootcamp twice during the shooting range because that armorer found out his barrel was bent the third time he failed qual (I ran into him in the fleet a year or so later).

    If I were to get a custom made rifle and was anal about these sorts of things, I can definitely see your point about. Overall I don't think it matters as much to the shooter as long as he has good data up to max effective. You just need reliable as a shooter, not exact. Some of our guys were able to hit beyond the 1,000 yard max eff. of the M40A5 in country a couple of times. I get the impression you see custom work and how it sometimes slack and say, "Integrity and professionalism mother fucker, where is it?"

    It's not about me trying to build some magic rifle or people being slack because they do it another way. It's about my desire to build the best rifle I'm capable of building because why would I bother with this **** otherwise?

    It's human nature for people to be taught how to do something and decide it's "good enough" and assume that any other method is not worth the trouble. "Joe Gunsmith does it this way and he's produced a million winning rifles" or "The Marine Corps does it this way and they're the Marine Corps so it must be the **** because Oorah!" But progress doesn't come from deciding the status quo is good enough. Progress comes from finding a better way.

    The factors I'm talking about are not imaginary. They're relevant to precision shooting. Timing bore curvature to 12 o'clock can reduce the likelihood of running out of windage adjustment on your scope at long range. It can reduce the likelihood of running out of elevation adjustment on your scope at long range. Dealing with bore curvature properly when chambering will ensure your chamber is true and perfectly squared to the bolt face, which nobody will deny is a factor in accuracy (or precision, so BKR doesn't **** in my shoes). It will ensure your crown is perfectly aligned with the end of the bore.

    These factors may not matter to shooters, but it's only because they don't understand them. That's okay though. They don't need to. That's the job of the builder. Just like a race car driver doesn't need to know every detail of what his engine mechanic did to get him that one extra horsepower. He might not even know it's there. It's there though, and it matters.

    Deciding various aspects of a rifle build don't matter are where people **** up. It ALL matters. If build practices didn't matter, snipers and competitive shooters all over the world would be shooting Remington 700s right off the shelf. But that's not what happens. They accurize them because they know they can do better than what the factory can do. But then someone comes along and says they've got an even better way and then people get their panties in a bunch and start deciding **** doesn't matter. It only matters as far as they're willing to go in their own pursuit of accuracy, but not one inch further. And that's bullshit.
  7. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2014 6:47pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by doofaloofa View Post
    I got a rabbit at 50m with iron sights on a .22 this morning

    Is that good?
    If it was a pistol.

    Haha. Just fucking with you. It's always good when you don't miss.
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