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  1. Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2014 9:42am


     Style: Kettles (MA hiatus).

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All Javeline operators are infantrymen with at least a years experience behind them so they're decent (or should be) soldiers before picking that trade. Once trained they join the battalion's Fire Support Group which is heavy weapons so they could also train with a heavy machine gun etc so I think it's a similar concept to the US forces, it is a specialist role but you should be able to do bread and butter stuff as well.

    And **** yeah about the PT, I've got a physical job and train for fun before I joined but now it can be really ball breaking. I've followed Rock Ape's running guide on here and I run with a pack constantly but it's always fun and games with the PTI's. It's such early doors for me I'm way off handling a Javelin yet but its something I'm looking to do.

    **** me, that sounded like a nightmare over there, props for your service.
    "Won't fight me in the ring? Don't fight me on the street."
    Paraphrased from Bullshido.

    "You can't judge Martial Arts until you feel the joy of kicking someone in the face and not go to prison for it."
    Mrs Kovacs.
  2. hungryjoe is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2014 11:28am

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     Style: judo hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Devil,

    Reading with interest you're plans on locating bore location and deviance from chamber to crown.

    How do you plan on accomplishing this with existing turned barrels? I'm coming at this from a set-up perspective prior to the actual chamber work and barrel threading.

    And yeah, I've read you're previous writings on the subject and know fully the issues involved in producing a true bore with material removal over the distances and diameters involved.
  3. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2014 3:37pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    Devil,

    Reading with interest you're plans on locating bore location and deviance from chamber to crown.

    How do you plan on accomplishing this with existing turned barrels? I'm coming at this from a set-up perspective prior to the actual chamber work and barrel threading.

    And yeah, I've read you're previous writings on the subject and know fully the issues involved in producing a true bore with material removal over the distances and diameters involved.
    Yeah, it's all about the setup. You can use a special fixture to hold the barrel in the lathe at the chamber end so you can adjust it precisely on any axis. It allows much more flexibility in your barrel alignment than a four jaw chuck. You use a long stem indicator inside the bore in two spots. Indicate just inside the bore and also indicate as deep as the indicator will allow - 2 1/2 inches or so deep. When you're zeroed in both spots you know you have the barrel aligned so that the chamber will be true to the beginning of the bore when you start cutting.

    When you crown, you use the same process. The idea is to make sure your chamber is concentric to the bore at the chamber end and your crown is concentric to the bore at the muzzle end. In between, the bore just does what it does. You can't control that. You just have to buy the best quality barrel you can get and deal with the curvature in the best way possible (instead of ignoring it, which is what usually happens).

    The conventional method is to set up your barrel for chambering by zeroing the chamber end and muzzle end simultaneously with two indicators. This assumes that your bore is straight, which is never the case and it causes both the chamber and the crown to be non-concentric to the path of the bore at the entry and exit point. The more curvature in your bore, the more out of whack your chamber and crown will be. It can also reduce the precision of your chamber by causing chatter when the pilot on your reamer pulls the reamer off center to follow your misaligned bore.

    Does that answer your question or did I misunderstand what you were asking? I can recommend some video sources if you want to see it but I realize that's way more detail than most people will ever give a **** about.
    Last edited by Devil; 4/13/2014 3:54pm at .
  4. hungryjoe is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2014 6:12pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Got it. You're working within the max reading depth of your indicators. Sounds like you'll have to work between a highly fine adjustable yet tight steady-rest to accomplish one end of the work.

    I would be interested in seeing the videos if the links are handy.

    I'm anal with my setups. It's a curse at times and a blessing at others.
  5. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2014 8:09pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    Got it. You're working within the max reading depth of your indicators. Sounds like you'll have to work between a highly fine adjustable yet tight steady-rest to accomplish one end of the work.

    I would be interested in seeing the videos if the links are handy.

    I'm anal with my setups. It's a curse at times and a blessing at others.

    Nope, no steady rest. I'll dig up some stuff to give you an idea of the setup.
  6. Ero-Sennin is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2014 8:29pm


     Style: BJJ/MMA, Boxing, Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Man, a lot of this talk is baffling to me but I think I have some sort of grasp on how it applies to the effectiveness of the rifle.

    I was browsing rifles earlier today and one of the things I noticed was the differences between the M40A1 (A3 and A5) set up. The set up of the M40 seems to be tailored towards heavy use and being knocked around a bit. During sniper school we were issued a rifle that had been used through the schoolhouse multiple times, and those things really take a beating between the miles run in full gear with the weapon, stalking, and other physical activity.

    One thing that concerns me when it comes to buying a rifle stems from not having confidence in the durability of the rifle. Will I have to treat it like my grandmother's china or can it take a beating? I can't see a rifle holding sub MOA taking a few unfortunate knocks and not needing some work to keep it at that accuracy level. If you don't mind answering Devil, how many tweaks/upgrades or different procedures can you do to a rifle before it starts becoming a fickle piece of equipment? I tend to side more on durability with good accuracy, and it seems like that's the center point on a spectrum involving more durability with less accuracy, or more accuracy with less durability.

    Or am I way off here? Quite the possibility, as I'm not exactly well versed or knowledgable in this area. I just have my own experiences to go off of, which are limited in exposure to multiple kinds of long rifles.
  7. Ero-Sennin is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2014 8:38pm


     Style: BJJ/MMA, Boxing, Karate

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kovacs View Post
    All Javeline operators are infantrymen with at least a years experience behind them so they're decent (or should be) soldiers before picking that trade. Once trained they join the battalion's Fire Support Group which is heavy weapons so they could also train with a heavy machine gun etc so I think it's a similar concept to the US forces, it is a specialist role but you should be able to do bread and butter stuff as well.

    And **** yeah about the PT, I've got a physical job and train for fun before I joined but now it can be really ball breaking. I've followed Rock Ape's running guide on here and I run with a pack constantly but it's always fun and games with the PTI's. It's such early doors for me I'm way off handling a Javelin yet but its something I'm looking to do.

    **** me, that sounded like a nightmare over there, props for your service.
    That sounds pretty similar to how US forces are structured. I'm sure there's some further differences due to your unit being reserve forces as well.

    Make sure you work up to carrying heavy loads. Going for pack runs will not be as beneficial to you as going on normal paced rucks with a heavier load though. It's a different kind of endurance. You won't be running any long distances with a Jav strapped on your back. I've had to run with one on before to get out of the LOF of an arty round, it wasn't fun. If you're running more than 500 meters you're better off just dumping the missile!

    I would also recommend doing a lot of planks in your fitness routines (all variation, at least 3 min. holds). It will do wonders for your back if you find yourself carrying a Jav often in training. You usually don't get this opportunity though because the equipment is so expensive. You can get around it by learning to carry heavy weight for long distances though, and extra emphasis on where to carry weight in your pack is essential as well. Heavier stuff on top and perfect balance between the weight on the left/right side of your back is the way to go. Even if you have to put extra equipment to balance the weight it's worth it. There's nothing like going on a 10k ruck with 5 more lbs. on one side of your ruck, you'll feel it after the first klick.
  8. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2014 9:42pm

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    Got it. You're working within the max reading depth of your indicators. Sounds like you'll have to work between a highly fine adjustable yet tight steady-rest to accomplish one end of the work.

    I would be interested in seeing the videos if the links are handy.

    I'm anal with my setups. It's a curse at times and a blessing at others.


    Okay, here are a couple examples of fixture options, the True Bore Alignment System and the Viper Chambering Fixture. Both will allow precise adjustments while chambering with the barrel through the spindle bore. The same setup is used for crowning. There are videos on the product websites.

    http://www.tiptopwebsite.com/website...rifles&page=25

    http://www.viperbench-rest.com/f_cla..._the_viper.htm

    While I was at it I grabbed some good examples that illustrate the issue of bore curvature and related chambering practices from one of my favorite gun nerd sites. Some excellent examples here from guys who can explain it better than me:



    This video explains the way most builders align their barrels for chambering with the bore zeroed at both ends simultaneously, and shows exactly what the problem is with that methodology:




    I even found some nifty pictures with exaggerated examples of bore curvature that helps to visualize your options for dealing with it. First, the wrong (and most commonly used) way with the bore zeroed at both ends:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    And the right way, zeroed at two points on the chamber end only:

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. hungryjoe is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2014 10:13pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sweet.
  10. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2014 10:32pm

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    2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ero-Sennin View Post
    Man, a lot of this talk is baffling to me but I think I have some sort of grasp on how it applies to the effectiveness of the rifle.

    I was browsing rifles earlier today and one of the things I noticed was the differences between the M40A1 (A3 and A5) set up. The set up of the M40 seems to be tailored towards heavy use and being knocked around a bit. During sniper school we were issued a rifle that had been used through the schoolhouse multiple times, and those things really take a beating between the miles run in full gear with the weapon, stalking, and other physical activity.

    One thing that concerns me when it comes to buying a rifle stems from not having confidence in the durability of the rifle. Will I have to treat it like my grandmother's china or can it take a beating? I can't see a rifle holding sub MOA taking a few unfortunate knocks and not needing some work to keep it at that accuracy level. If you don't mind answering Devil, how many tweaks/upgrades or different procedures can you do to a rifle before it starts becoming a fickle piece of equipment? I tend to side more on durability with good accuracy, and it seems like that's the center point on a spectrum involving more durability with less accuracy, or more accuracy with less durability.

    Or am I way off here? Quite the possibility, as I'm not exactly well versed or knowledgable in this area. I just have my own experiences to go off of, which are limited in exposure to multiple kinds of long rifles.
    I actually hear that concern quite a bit - that an expensive precision rifle may not be rugged. There are definitely a zillion different manufacturers to choose from for parts and some of them are higher quality than others. Generally speaking though you're going to get what you pay for with gun parts.

    All that is really a moot point though, because what I'm talking about is using better techniques to build a superior rifle, regardless of the components. I'm talking about taking the exact same components used to build an M40, for instance and making what is in my opinion a better rifle with them.

    You can fiddle with **** and **** it up. No doubt about that. You can build a rifle so tight it won't cycle if it gets a grain of sand in it. But that's on the extreme end of things. There are guys building top notch tactical rifles as durable as any rifle on the planet and they get sub-MOA accuracy without even trying hard to be honest. Their rifles are rugged. Their methodology does not include using parts or build practices that invite failure. Of course, it depends on the skill of the builder. There are some shitbirds out there too.

    The possibilities are limitless and a good builder can tailor the rifle to your needs. If you want a loosy goosy rattle trap you can get one. If you want a 50 lb. bench rifle that's tight as a drum and has a truck axle for a barrel you can get one of those too.

    One other point. Rifles are machines and any machine can break, especially when abused. Modern firearms typically function well but it's eye opening to get into a situation like mine where you're constantly dealing with broken guns. You know all those people out there sitting smugly in their confidence that "My Glawk ain't never gonna' break cause mutherfuckin' Glawks don't break?" Well, Glawks do in fact break. lol.
    Last edited by Devil; 4/13/2014 10:40pm at .
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