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  1. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    Except that only works in a theoretical framework; for example, while I would suppose that the crime of arson would universally seen as morally wrong, the same can't be said for, say, abortion. Moral universalism is not the end all, be all of the argument.
    Abortion is awesome. No you still don't understand. Moral is what furthers the good of a group. What member of the group think to be moral is a totally DIFFERENT thing. Sure the Nazis thought putting jews in gas chambers was morally right but that does not make it morally right. (Hint: People can be wrong)



    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    How do you quantify 'right' and 'wrong' without resorting to extreme examples? If I vote for an administration that enacts legislation that creates benefits for the vast majority but that same legislation makes a minor hardship for a small minority, is that a bad or good government? Should that government be opposed? If so, by who? You're not really thinking this through.
    Welcome to the real world there things ain�t not simple. Try to get your basics down first.


    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    Good enough for you doesn't mean ****. You don't get to take credit by proxy.
    Your proxy argument is total bullshit. Giving a charity my money would mean I get no credit while I get it when I give directly.

    See the point is, I don't deserve credit, which also means I don't deserve blame. So I don't feel any guilt. I think a bit historical awareness is appropriate and that�s it.

    Now the question is why you guys feel guilty.



    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    My answer is not that at all. My answer is: is it practical, period?
    You confuse practical with hypocritical.
    When people in Germany give something back that got stolen 100 years ago, you cheer it on but 200 years ago that is already out of bounds. You draw the line at a point that suits you.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    Oh, so it has to be "people"? What if it's just one person?
    At least one person.

  2. #132

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One wonders when and if this thread will ever get back on the rails...

  3. #133

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Back to the topic. OP do this:

  4. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    What part did you take issue with? Of course it is a bit over the top but it is true that Germany has done a better job at making up for the crimes than lets say Japan. And yes I know that the US government also provides reservation for native Americans and probably some other aid and stuff. I probably would not seriously claim to be morally superior to an US citizen.
    You guys are awesome, thanks.. i mean those payments you gave every month to my grandparents, they really compensated for all the lives and property left behind to be devoured be the oh so moral neighbors. Now i live in Israel, with slightly better neighbors.. and the situation here is just fucking peachy. Yea, you made a real effort much better than japan, true that one can claim that the fucking Atom bombs along with the carpet bombing and mass fires is punishment enough..but ah.. **** it, the ones that suffered the most from Japan are doing just fine.

  5. #135
    Permalost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    What? I don't really get it.
    Native Americans sometimes bartered away their land due to different understandings about how land and property worked according to white folks. Tribes also acquired territories by taking it from other tribes (sometimes by force). Its not as if the first territorial dispute, war, conquest, and mass graves in the Americas happened after 1491. These were some things not considered in your oversimplified house analogy.

    Yeah that is why your example sucked. Mine implied he was the rightful owner. But even if he were not, it would still be murder for profit.
    Your example sucked because it oversimplified the situation to the point that useful inferences couldn't be drawn.

    Imagine if your ideas were a house, but the idea roof wasn't properly waterproofed with the shingles of nuance, letting in the rain of complexity, and in your soaked and cold state, you don't notice the guy from your analogy and he kills you. Or trades you a space blanket for your crappy house. Then a Native American demands the house, he gets stabbed, and his stopped heart triggers the nuclear bomb in the sidecar of his motorcycle outside, killing everyone.

    Do you see how an erroneous simplified analogy doesn't really help the conversation along?

    He has no right to decide that but an legitimate government can do this. For example emergency or they want to build a road or whatever.
    So you'd be happy to move if the government needed to build a road?

    My morals which are supposed to apply universal.
    Morals are not universal.

    I AM German. So yes I am allowed to put the finger at you fuckers. In Germany we did quite a lot to make up for the crime of our ancestors. Well the German government but I pay taxes and vote so me included.
    You're pointing your finger at us taxpaying voting motherfuckers because you pay taxes and vote?
    Last edited by Permalost; 11/14/2013 12:31pm at .

  6. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Morals are not universal.
    Exactly.

    My response to Owlet's "racism is always wrong" was to point out, not that he's living on land taken from another race (who isn't?), but that he's doing so while at the same time decrying all racism in others.

    Seems that, for Owlet, some forms of racism are less odious than others.

  7. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by erezb View Post
    You guys are awesome, thanks.. i mean those payments you gave every month to my grandparents, they really compensated for all the lives and property left behind to be devoured be the oh so moral neighbors. Now i live in Israel, with slightly better neighbors.. and the situation here is just fucking peachy. Yea, you made a real effort much better than japan, true that one can claim that the fucking Atom bombs along with the carpet bombing and mass fires is punishment enough..but ah.. **** it, the ones that suffered the most from Japan are doing just fine.
    No money in the world can properly compensate for what happened. I can not change what happened, having some historical awareness and watching out nothing the like happens again is the only thing I can do and the only thing that can be reasonably expected from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Your example sucked because it oversimplified the situation to the point that useful inferences couldn't be drawn.
    Yes of course the real situation was much differently. It was to understand the principles first.

    I don't even believe that OwlMatt should give away his land. I just think that his lack of ideological justification for not doing so is telling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    So you'd be happy to move if the government needed to build a road?
    Well the government has the right to do so. Of course it sucks most of the time when you have to move out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    You're pointing your finger at us taxpaying voting motherfuckers because you pay taxes and vote?
    That is the joke.

  8. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Exactly.

    My response to Owlet's "racism is always wrong" was to point out, not that he's living on land taken from another race (who isn't?), but that he's doing so while at the same time decrying all racism in others.

    Seems that, for Owlet, some forms of racism are less odious than others.
    Not less odious, just more reparable. We can't go back and undo the racism of the past, but we can confront the racism of the present.

    By the way, since you openly accused me of being a supporter of reparations, how about you back that up? You were obviously bothered by my suggestion that you were just making **** up, so feel free to show how you weren't just making **** up.
    Last edited by OwlMatt; 11/14/2013 2:10pm at .

  9. #139
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We should all just look for more creative reasons to hate people, race aside.


  10. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelvis View Post
    Back to the topic. OP do this:

    In theory works like a charm against black and white people, but I don't know if it goes well with yellow... :-/. They haven't made such a movie, they all seem to just fly around.


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