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  1. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 6:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    ... Now one day the family of the person that was murdered comes along and wants the house back.
    Answer depends on how many and how well armed they are.
  2. The Cap is offline
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    ORNYTHORINQUE!... BOIT-SANS-SOIF!... BACHI-BOUZOUK!

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 6:35pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Hmm, I've got no sensible answer to any point anyone has made here...

    I WAS TROLLING ALL ALONG!11!!!!
    Rock on, it's not like you had any other recourse at this point.
  3. FinalLegion is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 7:06pm

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     Style: Shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    Lets assume your father as young man saw a house he liked. He killed the person that lived were and decided it to be his house. He got married and you got born. You lived your whole childhood in the nice house. After your father dies you get the house. Now one day the family of the person that was murdered comes along and wants the house back.

    And you are like "dude everyone has someone in his ancestry who did wrong. It is all relative and stuff."

    Oh and "harmed or offended"? Do you believe offending people is morally wrong?
    That's a pretty poor example of trying to invalidate my position. Since your example bespeaks of a home and therefore a community that certainly has laws against such things, I'd obviously be legally bound to surrender the house. Trying to equate a violent act that my father committed that I immediately benefit from is a far cry from trying to hold me accountable for the actions of multiple generations.
  4. FinalLegion is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 7:11pm

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     Style: Shotokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    That is a different question, though interesting. Also going into a house of a murderer and killing him and taking his house is still wrong. My views on private property are a bit different than "I was here first" anyway and more alike of to "how can society make the best use of the house" but different discussion.

    I am just interested in what this moral relativist FinalLegion is going to answer.
    Who said I was acting the part of a moral relativist? All I'm claiming that if you intend to hold me personally responsible for something my ancestors did 200 years ago, of which I had no part or authority in, than I can likewise do the same to anyone.

    If I murder someone today and steal his wallet,, are my descendants 200 years still going to owe something to my victim's descendants?
  5. killface is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 7:37pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    That's a pretty poor example of trying to invalidate my position. Since your example bespeaks of a home and therefore a community that certainly has laws against such things, I'd obviously be legally bound to surrender the house. Trying to equate a violent act that my father committed that I immediately benefit from is a far cry from trying to hold me accountable for the actions of multiple generations.
    Your argumentation was that everyone�s ancestor has done something morally wrong.
    Oh and something is only morally wrong when there are laws against it?
    For how many generations should you be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    Who said I was acting the part of a moral relativist? All I'm claiming that if you intend to hold me personally responsible for something my ancestors did 200 years ago, of which I had no part or authority in, than I can likewise do the same to anyone.
    So because it applies to everyone it is invalid?

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    If I murder someone today and steal his wallet,, are my descendants 200 years still going to owe something to my victim's descendants?
    Yes. Not for 50$ because trivial but say some very expensive jewelry, I could see that.

    Apparently 100 years are still short enough to be held accountable to, as you can see here:
    http://www.dw.de/return-of-namibian-...y/a-15427571-1

    But of course if it is 200 years ago, it is a totally different story. (sarcasm)
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 7:41pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    That is a different question, though interesting.
    Your intent was to draw parallels between your analogy and the giving of reparations, yeah? In my mind, my question is a variation of the same. One could also ask this:

    If I trade my neighbor a bunch of beads and a handful of cash to acquire his house (because his understanding of property is a little strange), do my successors owe his successors something?

    Also going into a house of a murderer and killing him and taking his house is still wrong.
    If the dead guy acquired it by stealing, is it even his house?

    My views on private property are a bit different than "I was here first" anyway and more alike of to "how can society make the best use of the house" but different discussion.
    How would you feel if some guys in suits kicked you out of your house, but assured you that they'd make sure society made better use of it?
  7. FinalLegion is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 7:53pm

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     Style: Shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    Your argumentation was that everyone�s ancestor has done something morally wrong.
    Oh and something is only morally wrong when there are laws against it?
    For how many generations should you be held accountable?
    Morally wrong is morally wrong, but then again, whose morals do you intend to use?


    So because it applies to everyone it is invalid?
    When did I say it was invalid? The point I'm making is that doing wrong is doing wrong, period. Unless you, personally, are of the intent of undoing, as best you can, the wrongdoings of YOUR ancestors then it's pretty hypocritical to point the finger at someone else for not doing that.


    Yes. Not for 50$ because trivial but say some very expensive jewelry, I could see that.
    So long how do you intend to hold that person's family responsible?

    Apparently 100 years are still short enough to be held accountable to, as you can see here:
    http://www.dw.de/return-of-namibian-...y/a-15427571-1

    But of course if it is 200 years ago, it is a totally different story. (sarcasm)
    That was Germany's decision. If they decided that, I say good for them. Now, are you going to emulate them and undo any wrongdoings of your ancestors?
  8. killface is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 8:17pm


     Style: BJJ

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Your intent was to draw parallels between your analogy and the giving of reparations, yeah? In my mind, my question is a variation of the same. One could also ask this:

    If I trade my neighbor a bunch of beads and a handful of cash to acquire his house (because his understanding of property is a little strange), do my successors owe his successors something?
    What? I don't really get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    If the dead guy acquired it by stealing, is it even his house?
    Yeah that is why your example sucked. Mine implied he was the rightful owner. But even if he were not, it would still be murder for profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    How would you feel if some guys in suits kicked you out of your house, but assured you that they'd make sure society made better use of it?
    He has no right to decide that but an legitimate government can do this. For example emergency or they want to build a road or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    Morally wrong is morally wrong, but then again, whose morals do you intend to use?
    My morals which are supposed to apply universal.


    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    When did I say it was invalid? The point I'm making is that doing wrong is doing wrong, period. Unless you, personally, are of the intent of undoing, as best you can, the wrongdoings of YOUR ancestors then it's pretty hypocritical to point the finger at someone else for not doing that.

    That was Germany's decision. If they decided that, I say good for them. Now, are you going to emulate them and undo any wrongdoings of your ancestors?
    I AM German. So yes I am allowed to put the finger at you fuckers. In Germany we did quite a lot to make up for the crime of our ancestors. Well the German government but I pay taxes and vote so me included.

    That was the point I wanted to make. I can laugh at you hypocritical fuckers.


    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    So long how do you intend to hold that person's family responsible?
    I was asking first. You don�t know what to write so you ask me back. Nice try.
  9. FinalLegion is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 8:26pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My morals which are supposed to apply universal.
    When you find a morality system that is universal and everyone agrees to, get back to me.



    I AM German. So yes I am allowed to put the finger at you fuckers. In Germany we did quite a lot to make up for the crime of our ancestors. Well the German government but I pay taxes and vote so me included.

    That was the point I wanted to make. I can laugh at you hypocritical fuckers.
    Oh please...lol....are you fucking kidding me? YOU didn't do a goddamn thing. You get credit by proxy? So anytime someone's government does something that you perceive as 'morally good', you get to accept credit because you were part of the voting process? That's utter bullshit and nothing more than avoidance of responsibility.



    I was asking first. You don�t know what to write so you ask me back. Nice try.
    I asked you in return because you seem to have some absolute answer for this. If your answer is something akin to time being irrelevant than we're all going to pretty much be spending the majority of our lives trying to undo the wrongs of our ancestors.
  10. killface is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 9:06pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Meh, I am too nice of a guy for this game. Vieux Normand come back and troll those people.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    When you find a morality system that is universal and everyone agrees to, get back to me.
    Moral is depending on how many people agree with you? Seriously? It gets better and better.


    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    Oh please...lol....are you fucking kidding me? YOU didn't do a goddamn thing. You get credit by proxy? So anytime someone's government does something that you perceive as 'morally good', you get to accept credit because you were part of the voting process? That's utter bullshit and nothing more than avoidance of responsibility.
    Wait what? Do you even logic? Even if you were right that would mean citizen are not responsible for the bad a government does (they are!) and that would mean I have totally not responsibility for the crimes committed. Makes me look even better.



    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    I asked you in return because you seem to have some absolute answer for this. If your answer is something akin to time being irrelevant than we're all going to pretty much be spending the majority of our lives trying to undo the wrongs of our ancestors.
    So you can not answer this. You made the claim of time is being relevant so you have to answer this. Or do you want to backtrack?

    I never made up any theory regarding time and responsibility.

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