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  1. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2013 8:26pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    That's an interesting Idea, I'll have to try that out sometime.

    Recently I found out that a friend of a friend is a Black Belt in Judo and has trained at the Kodokan. I'll ask him some of these questions if I get the chance.

    I think I'm mostly interested in older Judo, the Judo that was taught to W.E. Faribairn and Oshchepkov, the founder of SAMBO. I want to mix it with my catch wrestling and San Da. Maybe it's not all that different from newer Judo. But it seems like Judo today is much more restrictive (could be wrong about that.)
    Your attitude/approach is typical of many noobs. You see Judo as some collection of techniques to be learned to be added to your arsenal. So, you want to learn what Fairbairn learned, and Oschepkov learned.

    How about Osoto Gari, O Goshi, Seoi Nage, Ouchi Gari, stuff like that?

    Judo throws illustrate various principles of throwing, strangling, and joint locking. That's what is most useful about it, plus, you learn those in a relatively safe way and environment, and can practice full speed with resistance (when appropriate).

    If you can absorb those principles, then the exact form of the throw or what you call it anymore doesn't matter, nor how/when/why you apply it. Gi, no gi, Olympic sport, self defense, the principles apply. A reap is a reap (Osoto Gari/Morote Gari) whether done with your leg, your arm, or your hand, or both hands.

    But that takes a long time to learn.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2013 11:49pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That makes sense. I am a noob , so, sorry :/

    The idea of learning principles is very appealing to me. I hope I'm smart enough to pick up on that stuff.

    I think I'm starting to understand how all the leg trips in San Da are essentially the same, even if they are on the inside or outside. You push the top half while pulling the leg towards you, so you kind of lever their body if that makes sense.

    I take it the principles found in Judo aren't taught in the club, you gain them form years of practice?

    Thank you for your post. It's been eye opening.
  3. Bayonet is online now

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    Posted On:
    10/17/2013 8:19am


     Style: Judo

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    'I've been looking at this new sandwich for a while now. Usually I eat these other type of sandwiches, but I really want to get into this new one. Thing is, I really don't know how this new sandwich is going to taste. Can any of you guys explain the taste? I mean REALLY explain, like, every tiny sensation that may appear on my palate. I'm kinda hesitant to just chew into this sandwich without knowing what kind of taste I'm getting into...

    I'm a five-foot-three Capricorn with hazel eyes, if that helps. Is this sandwich good for me, or should I be looking into wraps?

    Also, I've heard from a few friends of mine that the modern way of making this sandwich is a TOTALLY different deal than the original recipe from the 17th century. Like, the original sandwich was a home-made deal, while a lot of the modern kind are restaurant-aspected? Do you guys think this is a big deal? Is there any place that makes the ORIGINAL sandwich, or have they all been co-opted by the modern sandwich reform? Is the taste remarkably different, or just a little bit?

    Should I do some more research before tasting this sandwich? I just don't know how much I'm going to like the sandwich.

    :D

    Dude... just bite the fucking sandwich... ;)


    I was in the exact same situation as you awhile back. Wanted to start Judo, but had this mental block; I HAD to learn everything about Judo before actually trying Judo because REASONS...

    Get a white gi. Try Judo. Bite the Sandwich.
  4. Judo Terrier is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/17/2013 9:19am


     Style: Judo, jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Body mechanics is body mechanics, doesn't matter what style you do.

    Part of the problem is that one of the most basic principles of judo is so damn simple it's hard to learn. If you get someone off balance you can throw them. Period. There's a ton of different ways to do it depending on exactly how they are unbalanced and where you are in relation to them, and then there's how to get then off balance in the first place. But that's what it boils down to. I look forward to spending the rest of my life struggling with it. If you're doing judo you're learning the principles, whether they are explicitly said out loud or not.

    I don't like a lot of the IJF rules either. But when push comes to shove, when you do judo and you randori and compete, you understand at a gut level the difference between a nice pretty demo of a technique with a compliant uke, and trying to get that same technique against someone who is fighting you for all they're worth. You MUST adapt and flow. Whole lotta practical value and application right there.

    Like the guy said, bite the sandwich. Put on a gi and go try it out. If you hate it you can always quit. Warning though--judo is rather addictive.
  5. DarkPhoenix is offline
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    I feel like you eyeballin' me, dawg!

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    Posted On:
    10/17/2013 1:28pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    That makes sense. I am a noob , so, sorry :/

    The idea of learning principles is very appealing to me. I hope I'm smart enough to pick up on that stuff.

    I think I'm starting to understand how all the leg trips in San Da are essentially the same, even if they are on the inside or outside. You push the top half while pulling the leg towards you, so you kind of lever their body if that makes sense.

    I take it the principles found in Judo aren't taught in the club, you gain them form years of practice?

    Thank you for your post. It's been eye opening.
    It all depends on the club. They may actually go over the theory and principles in a lecture type format, or it is just something that you will pick up over time. The whole point of judo falls under the following two principles,

    Jita Kyoei - Principle of mutual prosperity or benefit
    Seiryoku Zenyo - Principle of maximum efficiency.

    Basically, have fun and practice to make it as easy as possible for you to do your techniques. That is really it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Moment View Post
    BJJ JOE: I'm going to make hate to you. Right here, right now.
    ... Ohhhhhhhh, I'm going to make hate to you so hard that your kinfolk back in Africa will feel it.l
    Quote Originally Posted by Archer
    Karate is the Dane Cook of martial arts
  6. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/17/2013 6:18pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hahaha thank you. I felt like a complete asshole having read your parable. I guess I will just jump right in and see how go's it.

    Time to bite the fucking sandwich.
  7. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/17/2013 7:59pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    That makes sense. I am a noob , so, sorry :/

    The idea of learning principles is very appealing to me. I hope I'm smart enough to pick up on that stuff.

    I think I'm starting to understand how all the leg trips in San Da are essentially the same, even if they are on the inside or outside. You push the top half while pulling the leg towards you, so you kind of lever their body if that makes sense.

    I take it the principles found in Judo aren't taught in the club, you gain them form years of practice?

    Thank you for your post. It's been eye opening.
    Noob isn't pejorative, in this case at least. I'm a noob at my job, I know it, everybody else knows it, especially that I replaced a guy who retired after 20+ years at the same job.

    I can't speak for San Da, but in judo, all the "leg trips" are not the same.

    Principles and being taught...well, that depends on the club and the coach/sensei. Because the different throws in Judo represent different principles, or the principle and a variation on how to apply the principle, you learn the principle as part of learning the throw whether it is explicit or not.

    What you describe in Sanda is a "couple" (force couple) throw, kind of a mechanical explanation. Some throws in Judo work like that too, but judo throws are not classified (by the Kodokan at least) according to things like the type if lever used to execute the throw.

    You can learn the principles explicitly or by doing or by both. Because I'm a judo teacher, and because of natural inclination, I sought out the principles involved, and at the same time internalized the basics of them. It is a positive feedback loop to some extent in my case at least.

    But yeah, it takes a lot of practice.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/17/2013 8:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judo Terrier View Post
    Body mechanics is body mechanics, doesn't matter what style you do.

    Part of the problem is that one of the most basic principles of judo is so damn simple it's hard to learn. If you get someone off balance you can throw them. Period. There's a ton of different ways to do it depending on exactly how they are unbalanced and where you are in relation to them, and then there's how to get then off balance in the first place. But that's what it boils down to. I look forward to spending the rest of my life struggling with it. If you're doing judo you're learning the principles, whether they are explicitly said out loud or not.
    No, you absolutely cannot necessarily throw someone if you have them off balance. That is an oversimlification that has and does confuse judoka (especially noobs) throughout the history of Judo. There is a lot more involved. Once issue is control. If you do not maintain control, uke can block, dodge, turn out of the throw (attempt).

    If am so very large and strong compared to you, I can just pick you up. No need for "kuzushi". In fact,most "judo throws" can be done without kuzushi. One of my japanese sensei laughingly told me one time that some throws are just tsukuri, sometimes, and he really laughed hard at this comment, just kake.



    It confused the hell out of me for years, as a matter of fact. "Moar kuzushi" everybody yells, but, really, no.

    Judoka_UK wrote an article about this very topic I think, so search function if anyone cares.

    {snip}
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. Judo Terrier is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/17/2013 8:38pm


     Style: Judo, jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Given that you have hugely more experience than I do, I'll take the correction and not argue. ;-) It just seems like the principles involved in throwing are so simple, but the execution is anything but.

    Erika
  10. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2013 2:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judo Terrier View Post
    Given that you have hugely more experience than I do, I'll take the correction and not argue. ;-) It just seems like the principles involved in throwing are so simple, but the execution is anything but.

    Erika

    Be skeptical but learn to listen, LOL. Please don't ever just stop discussing because of some difference in experience. I'm here to learn as much as anyone else. I've pissed off plenty of senior judoka by asking questions. Not that I'll get pissed.

    The principles are simple ? Well, sort of, on the face of things. Execution against a resisting opponent is what is hard.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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