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  1. DaTedBear is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2013 11:55am


     Style: Traditional Mix

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Welcome to Judo! I was never very large myself and wrestled through high school and college, using judo from our coach. It is useful and enjoyable and the workout is great. You will like the change. Let your mind be open to technique, try not to get wrapped around the axel about this technique or that technique, let your teacher take care of that. You will have techniques you do for promotion and then you will have YOUR techniques that you use in Randori. Go with the flow and use what works for you.
  2. The Cap is online now
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    ORNYTHORINQUE!... BOIT-SANS-SOIF!... BACHI-BOUZOUK!

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2013 8:32pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    The rules do not "nuke" gripfighting [...] Current rules disallow a two-handed strip and playing pattycake
    They also disallow two on one grips that don't result in an immediate attack and penalize fighters who defend an opponent's grip attempts. The result is that competitor's reach out, establish a standard right or left grip on each other and then start fighting. This is along with the rule against leg touching.

    Penalized with Shido
    -Breaking the grip with 2 hands.
    -Cross gripping should be followed by an immediate attack. Same rule as for the belt gripping and one side gripping.
    The referees should strictly penalize the contestants who do not engage in a quick Kumikata grip or who try not to be gripped by the opponent.
    -To hug the opponent for a throw. (Bear hug).
    From http://www.intjudo.eu/News/cikk2389
  3. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2013 9:05pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cap View Post
    They also disallow two on one grips that don't result in an immediate attack and penalize fighters who defend an opponent's grip attempts. The result is that competitor's reach out, establish a standard right or left grip on each other and then start fighting. This is along with the rule against leg touching.



    From http://www.intjudo.eu/News/cikk2389
    Not exactly on the "both players establishing standard grips...I was at Canadian Nationals this year in Richmond, BC, and I saw quite a bit of grip fighting, and dominate gripping as well that was established after gripping exchanges.

    And there is not immediate penalty for defending against grips, unless the guy is obviously trying to "not do Judo". If by defending you mean cutting and regripping in a positive manner.

    Things are a more restrictive, though, regarding gripping and grip fighting, no doubt about that. The premium is on getting a solid grip first for sure.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/12/2013 1:35am


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickybomb View Post
    That's from older set of rules. today you must never touch the leg of your opponent as you're immediately disquilified. On olympic games that happened to our champion when she faced a much bigger and heavier competitor, she got her unbalanced and reflexively took her leg. The minibus came tumbling dow into what would be a sweet ippon a year or so back, but Lucija had to leave the olympic games in tears.

    It bothers the **** out of me as some of the most effective throws are no longer practiced and takedowns are virtually none-existing. Judo used to be about beating the other with minimal amount of strength, but now I wonder how would a small petite girl of 1,30m throw my 2 meters around? Double leg with a trip and some ex-legal judo trips and throws would do the trick easily. But now if such person fights me, he/she'd better be a few belts above me.

    Saying all that, there's a little brown belt hulk in our class that constantly throws me with tomoe nage, leg sweeps and hip throws (but I suspect that if I wouldn't be very slim tall lad, it would change his entrys completly as the tonnage and figure obviously makes the difference) . And so it's possible to beat larger people, just that it used to be easier before and sometimes it's gonna be all about points and penalties.
    I'm not interested, at all really, in training to get to the olympics. I've heard that that mindset is pissing some Judoka off, because as opposed to Judo being for people who want to do something healthy, fun, etc. , it is more about trying to get one of your guys into the olympics. I don't know if it's true, I've just heard that opinion espoused before.

    Will a judo coach teach you the older moves not used in competition now? (ex. the ones involving leg grabs?) That's one of my main worries about doing judo, the ruleset.

    The catch ruleset we use is any hold is o.k., any throw is o.k. No hitting, no biting, no kicking (common sense no-no's of grappling arts) So it allows for a lot of variation and techniques from different arts. You win by pin or by submission.

    Judo seems to have A LOT of rules, and some of which seem to make it less, I don't know, less like Kano's judo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickybomb View Post
    That's from older set of rules. today you must never touch the leg of your opponent as you're immediately disquilified. On olympic games that happened to our champion when she faced a much bigger and heavier competitor, she got her unbalanced and reflexively took her leg. The minibus came tumbling dow into what would be a sweet ippon a year or so back, but Lucija had to leave the olympic games in tears.

    It bothers the **** out of me as some of the most effective throws are no longer practiced and takedowns are virtually none-existing. Judo used to be about beating the other with minimal amount of strength, but now I wonder how would a small petite girl of 1,30m throw my 2 meters around? Double leg with a trip and some ex-legal judo trips and throws would do the trick easily. But now if such person fights me, he/she'd better be a few belts above me.

    Saying all that, there's a little brown belt hulk in our class that constantly throws me with tomoe nage, leg sweeps and hip throws (but I suspect that if I wouldn't be very slim tall lad, it would change his entrys completly as the tonnage and figure obviously makes the difference) . And so it's possible to beat larger people, just that it used to be easier before and sometimes it's gonna be all about points and penalties.
    I'm not interested, at all really, in training to get to the olympics. I've heard that that mindset is pissing some Judoka off, because as opposed to Judo being for people who want to do something healthy, fun, etc. , it is more about trying to get one of your guys into the olympics. I don't know if it's true, I've just heard that opinion espoused before.

    Will a judo coach teach you the older moves not used in competition now? (ex. the ones involving leg grabs?) That's one of my main worries about doing judo, the ruleset.

    The catch ruleset we use is any hold is o.k., any throw is o.k. No hitting, no biting, no kicking (common sense no-no's of grappling arts) So it allows for a lot of variation and techniques from different arts. You win by pin or by submission.

    Judo seems to have A LOT of rules, and some of which seem to make it less, I don't know, less like Kano's judo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickybomb View Post
    That's from older set of rules. today you must never touch the leg of your opponent as you're immediately disquilified. On olympic games that happened to our champion when she faced a much bigger and heavier competitor, she got her unbalanced and reflexively took her leg. The minibus came tumbling dow into what would be a sweet ippon a year or so back, but Lucija had to leave the olympic games in tears.

    It bothers the **** out of me as some of the most effective throws are no longer practiced and takedowns are virtually none-existing. Judo used to be about beating the other with minimal amount of strength, but now I wonder how would a small petite girl of 1,30m throw my 2 meters around? Double leg with a trip and some ex-legal judo trips and throws would do the trick easily. But now if such person fights me, he/she'd better be a few belts above me.

    Saying all that, there's a little brown belt hulk in our class that constantly throws me with tomoe nage, leg sweeps and hip throws (but I suspect that if I wouldn't be very slim tall lad, it would change his entrys completly as the tonnage and figure obviously makes the difference) . And so it's possible to beat larger people, just that it used to be easier before and sometimes it's gonna be all about points and penalties.
    I'm not interested, at all really, in training to get to the olympics. I've heard that that mindset is pissing some Judoka off, because as opposed to Judo being for people who want to do something healthy, fun, etc. , it is more about trying to get one of your guys into the olympics. I don't know if it's true, I've just heard that opinion espoused before.

    Will a judo coach teach you the older moves not used in competition now? (ex. the ones involving leg grabs?) That's one of my main worries about doing judo, the ruleset.

    The catch ruleset we use is any hold is o.k., any throw is o.k. No hitting, no biting, no kicking (common sense no-no's of grappling arts) So it allows for a lot of variation and techniques from different arts. You win by pin or by submission.

    Judo seems to have A LOT of rules, and some of which seem to make it less, I don't know, less like Kano's judo?

    I have no Idea why my response posted three times. Sorry about that guys :(
  5. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/12/2013 1:48am


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    That's too bad. I'd think you might be given a little consideration due to your being a noob AND being much smaller than the rest of the students. That said, it is a lot easier to learn grappling with training partners closer to your own size.

    I was in a judo class many years ago with a Vietnamese man who was about 120 pounds. He was one tough SOB, but his small stature made it difficult for him in randori. Nobody just powered over him on purpose, though, just because they could.

    I'm 5'6 and 150 lbs, so no giant. Training with larger judoka can be just fine if they don't abuse their size/strength advantage. Competing with them I avoid, although when I was younger I did a bit until I tried Open division with some decent black belts that had 60-100 lbs on me.

    [snip]

    I'm going to switch from Catch Wrestling to Judo. There's a place near me, it's not really expensive, and I've heard many great things about Judo, and I'm interested in it's history too.

    My question is this: In one of Mtripps old threads about the beginning of BJJ/GJJ ( http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80372 )

    He said this "notice that only about 10 throws from the go kyo no waza are used to score ippon in judo shiai's! Worse; there are VERY few people any more who know which throws were which. This is why I tell people to focus on those 10 and leave the others alone."

    What are those throws? (So I can pay special attention to them if and when I should learn them)
    I can see where Mark is/was coming from in that thread, but I view it a bit differently.

    Different teachers take different approaches. If the sensei at your club are decently qualified to teach Judo, then you should do fine regardless of the exact set/order of throws and grappling you learn.

    There are certain basic throws that cover the principles of throwing that you need to learn. Those are basically the first 2 kyo of the gokyo no waza. That would be 16 throws. I looked through the list and there are 5 that are uncommon to rare in modern competition, with one marginal. That leaves 10, LOL ! So, I think that the it's not so much a competition reason, as one of fundamental principles. However, despite the other six not being "essential" to modern competitive judo (or not so modern), they are important as extensions or illustrations of principles skills that are basic to doing good Judo.

    16 throws will keep you busy for quite some time. Like until you get to shodan, if you do. The sutemi waza (sacrifice throws) are another kettle of fish, but if you get those 16 down, or even a smaller subset (10? , LOL), you will be able to pick up the sutemi waza pretty quickly.



    Judo has not been combat (as in self defense or "real" fighting")oriented for a VERY long time, if it ever really was. The rules of judo shiai have forbidden many dangerous techniques (as considered by the judo community) since, well, forever as far as we can be concerned. Judo has been competition oriented for a VERY long time as well. OK, much more so PERHAPS since the end of WW2, but, competition (shiai)

    Competition isn't the best way to improve your Judo...correct practice is, and, if you view competition as the most intense form of practice, then you will be even better off. If you are an adult, then ease into the competition carefully. It's intense, and you can get injured if you are not physically prepared as well as specifically trained judo-wise.

    You can still practice/learn the te-ashi tori waza if you like (leg grabs). I would not make them my "go to " techniques though, even if they were still legal in competition, as it would tend to take away from the more "major" throws that require you to turn you back or make closer contact with your opponent.

    [snip][/QUOTE]

    Yeah, I didn't word it correctly I think. Combat wasn't a good word to use. I think I was trying to say that it seems like the people that studied at the kodokan way back when (one of the guy's that founded SAMBO (Oschempkoff?) W.E. Fairbairn, etc.) The things they learned looked loser rules wise? Does that make any sense to you?

    Like they learned leg grabs, and certain stuff that, like has been said by others, isn't allowed in competition anymore. I could be totally wrong, so if that's the case, don't tear me apart too bad haha.

    I know that Kano wanted Judo to have a sporting mentality, as was stated in Mr. Tripps thread, as opposed to the jiu jutsu taught at the time, but that it wasn't turning the martial art into a sport, but making it sportive, so that people wouldn't be needlessly killed or injured, and so people could test their skills in randori and shiai.

    I would love to take judo and be able to learn the traditional throws that are banned in the olympics, but I feel like it would be rude of me to go to the dojo, and ask the coach there, "Hey. I want to learn Judo as it was taught back in Kano's day."

    Really tired right now so this post may not make much sense. I'll clarify things if need be.
  6. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/12/2013 2:23am


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh! o.k., I think I know what I'm trying to ask now.

    Do most Judo clubs teach the full curriculum of throws and locks, or do most only teach what is currently accepted in the olympics? How can I find out if my club teaches the full curriculum, without coming off as some know it all douche nozzle?

    I would like to continue learning leg locks, I would like to learn different grips, throws, etc. that they don't allow in the Olympics anymore. Do most Judo clubs still teach those? Or would I be hard pressed to find a school that teaches those now?


    I've kind of repeated myself, but now it's all cohesive in this post I think :)
  7. Nickosaurus is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/12/2013 3:54am


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    Do most Judo clubs teach the full curriculum of throws and locks, or do most only teach what is currently accepted in the olympics? How can I find out if my club teaches the full curriculum, without coming off as some know it all douche nozzle?
    Yes but there is some variation between clubs different coaches will teach different throws first. Not sure what country you are in but the syllabus is normally on the website of the National governing body.

    There will be some variation on the amount of "theory" taught in each lesson club to club, Competition focused clubs will probably do less. You can only really find that out by attending some classes
  8. poker is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/12/2013 9:32am


     Style: Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    Oh! o.k., I think I know what I'm trying to ask now.

    Do most Judo clubs teach the full curriculum of throws and locks, or do most only teach what is currently accepted in the olympics? How can I find out if my club teaches the full curriculum, without coming off as some know it all douche nozzle?

    I would like to continue learning leg locks, I would like to learn different grips, throws, etc. that they don't allow in the Olympics anymore. Do most Judo clubs still teach those? Or would I be hard pressed to find a school that teaches those now?


    I've kind of repeated myself, but now it's all cohesive in this post I think :)
    I doubt that you'll find a club that effectively teaches "all" judo, there is just too much of it to perfect. Better just to stick to the techniques the club shows you and above all incorporate the fundamentals of judo into your techniques and follow MTripps advice.

    However most clubs will probably still teach at least some of the throwing techniques no longer allowed in competition (e.g. kata guruma, te guruma etc), also some effective non-standard grips (e.g. in eri seionage). I doubt you'll find one that teaches leg locks though unless it has some influence from another grappling style.
    Last edited by poker; 10/12/2013 9:37am at .
  9. NeilG is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/12/2013 6:51pm


     Style: Kendo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cap View Post
    They also disallow two on one grips that don't result in an immediate attack and penalize fighters who defend an opponent's grip attempts. The result is that competitor's reach out, establish a standard right or left grip on each other and then start fighting. This is along with the rule against leg touching.
    The rule is against continuous two on one grip, it does not mandate standard grip. You like two sleeves or two collars or maybe the armpit ring, go for it. You can defend the grip so long as you are trying to establish your own grip. Extended two on one is usually negative judo, that's the reason for the rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    I would like to continue learning leg locks, I would like to learn different grips, throws, etc. that they don't allow in the Olympics anymore.
    I've never seen leg locks taught. I think there might be one or two in some kata but as far as teaching them properly? Not so much. A wrestling club will drill you doubles and singles better than judo clubs likely ever did. Even restricted there is a ton of content to the judo curriculum, more than enough to keep you busy. Just go train and see how you like it.
  10. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/12/2013 8:47pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by poker View Post
    I doubt that you'll find a club that effectively teaches "all" judo, there is just too much of it to perfect. Better just to stick to the techniques the club shows you and above all incorporate the fundamentals of judo into your techniques and follow MTripps advice.

    However most clubs will probably still teach at least some of the throwing techniques no longer allowed in competition (e.g. kata guruma, te guruma etc), also some effective non-standard grips (e.g. in eri seionage). I doubt you'll find one that teaches leg locks though unless it has some influence from another grappling style.
    Yah I don't think my club will teach all of the throws. I just hope that they teach the older throws that were used back in the day, that they aren't just interested in competition (as important as it is), but are interested equally as much in the real world aspect/self defense side. I know that the best self defense is awareness and track.

    This, sort of; "Now; much has been said over the years that Kano wanted to create a safe "sport" rather than a combat art. This is simply not so and ignores dozens of written works by Kano that refute it. What he wanted was a "sporting" attitude in Judo. That is not the same thing. Example, I am rolling with a player and he gets the choke, I tap, he lets go. THAT is sporting. I tap, he doesn't let go, that is NOT sporting. If he cranks on a joint lock and I have no chance to submit, THAT, is not sporting.

    "Now; much has been said over the years that Kano wanted to create a safe "sport" rather than a combat art. This is simply not so and ignores dozens of written works by Kano that refute it. What he wanted was a "sporting" attitude in Judo. That is not the same thing. Example, I am rolling with a player and he gets the choke, I tap, he lets go. THAT is sporting. I tap, he doesn't let go, that is NOT sporting. If he cranks on a joint lock and I have no chance to submit, THAT, is not sporting. "
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