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  1. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/10/2013 11:21pm


     Style: Submitting Myself/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Switching to Judo

    Hello. I've already bitched and moaned about my Catch Wrestling training, so I'll try to make this quick. I love the coaching, people there, etc. But I'm way to small for THAT class. I'm 133. I am the smallest person there, get completely man-handled, and can't really even compete against the other people during sparring because they are just to big and I'm to small.

    I know you're supposed to get manhandled when your a newb, but there isn't anyone there my size that I can spar with someone , so I can actually work on the stuff I'm learning, and not get knocked over, spread out, and have some huge man lay on top of me.

    If it was one guy in the class, fine. Two guys that were that big? O.K., still good. But when everyone in the class is huge? I just feel like I'm gunna get really fucked up one practice. I couldn't buck this guy off of me tonight. My technique was o.k., I asked my coach. He just said "keep trying" but the dude is way heavier than me, like an elephant laying on a zebra, technique can't do **** for a beginner like me in that situation.

    O.k., rant over.



    So, I'm going to stick with the Sanda/San Shou class my coach also teaches, as that is a great class, with people my height and weight, smaller, and larger. It's really fun, and the rules set is really interesting.

    I'm going to switch from Catch Wrestling to Judo. There's a place near me, it's not really expensive, and I've heard many great things about Judo, and I'm interested in it's history too.

    My question is this: In one of Mtripps old threads about the beginning of BJJ/GJJ ( http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80372 )

    He said this "notice that only about 10 throws from the go kyo no waza are used to score ippon in judo shiai's! Worse; there are VERY few people any more who know which throws were which. This is why I tell people to focus on those 10 and leave the others alone."

    What are those throws? (So I can pay special attention to them if and when I should learn them)

    This interests me also because of the rule changes in judo that, from what I have read online (the ultimate source of all truth, I know) make it less combat oriented and more competition oriented, as opposed to competition being just another (and the best) way to improve your judo (correct me if I'm wrong here.)

    Sorry this is so long, thanks to anyone who read this far.
  2. NeilG is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/11/2013 12:57am


     Style: Kendo

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You'll find the throws that work for you. Most people only have a couple that they really like to use (tokui-waza) and a handful they ever use. Uchimata, seoinage, haraigoshi, taiotoshi, sotomakikomi are popular forward throws. Ouchgari, kouchigari, kosotogari, osotogari are popular going back. Not a lot of sacrifices but you see them time to time. There's more that people use, a few that aren't often used and of course some that are illegal in competition these days. A good club should teach them anyway.
  3. The Cap is online now
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    ORNYTHORINQUE!... BOIT-SANS-SOIF!... BACHI-BOUZOUK!

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2013 1:14am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Seoi nage (ippon and drop variations), uchi mata, osoto gari and tai otoshi. Some people also like tomoe nage and harai goshi, and a well placed de ashi harai is beautiful.

    You'll feel it quickly when they work, and here's the thing: you don't want to learn all the moves. Or at least you don't want to master them all. Each throw is best suited to a specific body type and fighting style. Trying to apply, say, a power osoto to an opponent a foot taller than you is suicide. You're a smaller guy? Seoi nage is going to be your friend.

    Now the rules may nuke grip fighting in competition, but in your dojo you're still going to get plenty of experience applicable to combat.


    Here's a video of a "smaller" judo blackbelt winning with seoi:

  4. Stickybomb is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2013 2:58am


     Style: judo, boxing -noob

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's from older set of rules. today you must never touch the leg of your opponent as you're immediately disquilified. On olympic games that happened to our champion when she faced a much bigger and heavier competitor, she got her unbalanced and reflexively took her leg. The minibus came tumbling dow into what would be a sweet ippon a year or so back, but Lucija had to leave the olympic games in tears.

    It bothers the **** out of me as some of the most effective throws are no longer practiced and takedowns are virtually none-existing. Judo used to be about beating the other with minimal amount of strength, but now I wonder how would a small petite girl of 1,30m throw my 2 meters around? Double leg with a trip and some ex-legal judo trips and throws would do the trick easily. But now if such person fights me, he/she'd better be a few belts above me.

    Saying all that, there's a little brown belt hulk in our class that constantly throws me with tomoe nage, leg sweeps and hip throws (but I suspect that if I wouldn't be very slim tall lad, it would change his entrys completly as the tonnage and figure obviously makes the difference) . And so it's possible to beat larger people, just that it used to be easier before and sometimes it's gonna be all about points and penalties.
    Last edited by Stickybomb; 10/11/2013 3:04am at .
  5. CrackFox is online now
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    You have to work the look.

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2013 4:06am

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     Style: Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    He said this "notice that only about 10 throws from the go kyo no waza are used to score ippon in judo shiai's! Worse; there are VERY few people any more who know which throws were which. This is why I tell people to focus on those 10 and leave the others alone."

    What are those throws? (So I can pay special attention to them if and when I should learn them)
    Don't sweat the details of what specific throws you will get taught. You will only be taught some subset of the useful ones at first. Your instructor and the more senior students will have a set of throws that they like and use regularly, and as a beginner this will be the biggest factor on what you see do. As you progress, you should learn all the major competition throws and develop your own particular style based on a handful of these. You will also learn the less popular throws, though typically only in just enough depth to be able to demonstrate them at a grading.

    As an aside, and perhaps not a particularly helpful one at that, different people will have different ideas on which throws are useful and which are not. As far as I remember Tripp doesn't think [i]hiza guruma[i] is a real throw, but my coach thinks it's the bee's knees - he uses it all the time and it's one of the first things he teaches beginners.

    When I first started training with my current coach, I had already been doing judo for about 3 years and had already developed a dislike for hiza, so I really didn't like him pushing that stupid throw on us nearly every class. Three or four years later, it had become one of my go-to throws. Let me get to my point: I think if I had just done what I was told in class with some enthusiasm, instead of second guessing my coach and wondering why I was being taught stuff I had decided before hand was stupid, I probably would have had more fun and picked up the skills quicker.

    I'm not saying to blindly do whatever you are told, but I think if you pick a coach you should be picking them based on the idea that you think they know what they are teaching and you shouldn't have to second guess what you are being taught.
  6. Stickybomb is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2013 4:55am


     Style: judo, boxing -noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickybomb View Post
    and sometimes it's gonna be all about points and penalties.

    I apologise for this epic moment of stupidity. Obviously I type faster than I think.
  7. ttoto is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2013 8:16am


     Style: Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    At 133 cm you will probably be the smallest in your judo class too.
    As a beginner, the only throws you'll be shown will rypically be the easiest and most useful ones, so don't worry.
  8. DarkPhoenix is offline
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    I feel like you eyeballin' me, dawg!

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2013 8:41am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, JJJ, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Welcome to the dark side! We have cookies.

    As for the ten throws, like everyone here said, you will find what works for you. I have a tendency of using one of three throws myself, Harai goshi, De Ashi Harai, and Tai Otoshi. I will use either uchi mata, tomoe nage or osoto makekomi if the opportunity presents it self, but those are my go to throws.

    Find what works for you and your playing style. You may find that seio nage, or other low centre of gravity throws work for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Moment View Post
    BJJ JOE: I'm going to make hate to you. Right here, right now.
    ... Ohhhhhhhh, I'm going to make hate to you so hard that your kinfolk back in Africa will feel it.l
    Quote Originally Posted by Archer
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  9. NeilG is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/11/2013 9:51am


     Style: Kendo

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cap View Post
    Now the rules may nuke grip fighting in competition, but in your dojo you're still going to get plenty of experience applicable to combat.
    The rules do not "nuke" gripfighting, it is still very much a part of competitive judo. In fact you could argue that grip-fighting is almost entirely a feature of competition. Current rules disallow a two-handed strip and playing pattycake, plus the general idea of encouraging positive judo, but there is still plenty of grip fighting going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickybomb View Post
    Judo used to be about beating the other with minimal amount of strength, but now I wonder how would a small petite girl of 1,30m throw my 2 meters around?
    When is a small girl ever going to face a large man in a judo competition?
  10. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/11/2013 11:21am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    Hello. I've already bitched and moaned about my Catch Wrestling training, so I'll try to make this quick. I love the coaching, people there, etc. But I'm way to small for THAT class. I'm 133. I am the smallest person there, get completely man-handled, and can't really even compete against the other people during sparring because they are just to big and I'm to small.

    I know you're supposed to get manhandled when your a newb, but there isn't anyone there my size that I can spar with someone , so I can actually work on the stuff I'm learning, and not get knocked over, spread out, and have some huge man lay on top of me.
    That's too bad. I'd think you might be given a little consideration due to your being a noob AND being much smaller than the rest of the students. That said, it is a lot easier to learn grappling with training partners closer to your own size.

    I was in a judo class many years ago with a Vietnamese man who was about 120 pounds. He was one tough SOB, but his small stature made it difficult for him in randori. Nobody just powered over him on purpose, though, just because they could.

    I'm 5'6 and 150 lbs, so no giant. Training with larger judoka can be just fine if they don't abuse their size/strength advantage. Competing with them I avoid, although when I was younger I did a bit until I tried Open division with some decent black belts that had 60-100 lbs on me.

    [snip]

    I'm going to switch from Catch Wrestling to Judo. There's a place near me, it's not really expensive, and I've heard many great things about Judo, and I'm interested in it's history too.

    My question is this: In one of Mtripps old threads about the beginning of BJJ/GJJ ( http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80372 )

    He said this "notice that only about 10 throws from the go kyo no waza are used to score ippon in judo shiai's! Worse; there are VERY few people any more who know which throws were which. This is why I tell people to focus on those 10 and leave the others alone."

    What are those throws? (So I can pay special attention to them if and when I should learn them)[/quote]

    I can see where Mark is/was coming from in that thread, but I view it a bit differently.

    Different teachers take different approaches. If the sensei at your club are decently qualified to teach Judo, then you should do fine regardless of the exact set/order of throws and grappling you learn.

    There are certain basic throws that cover the principles of throwing that you need to learn. Those are basically the first 2 kyo of the gokyo no waza. That would be 16 throws. I looked through the list and there are 5 that are uncommon to rare in modern competition, with one marginal. That leaves 10, LOL ! So, I think that the it's not so much a competition reason, as one of fundamental principles. However, despite the other six not being "essential" to modern competitive judo (or not so modern), they are important as extensions or illustrations of principles skills that are basic to doing good Judo.

    16 throws will keep you busy for quite some time. Like until you get to shodan, if you do. The sutemi waza (sacrifice throws) are another kettle of fish, but if you get those 16 down, or even a smaller subset (10? , LOL), you will be able to pick up the sutemi waza pretty quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    This interests me also because of the rule changes in judo that, from what I have read online (the ultimate source of all truth, I know) make it less combat oriented and more competition oriented, as opposed to competition being just another (and the best) way to improve your judo (correct me if I'm wrong here.)
    Judo has not been combat (as in self defense or "real" fighting")oriented for a VERY long time, if it ever really was. The rules of judo shiai have forbidden many dangerous techniques (as considered by the judo community) since, well, forever as far as we can be concerned. Judo has been competition oriented for a VERY long time as well. OK, much more so PERHAPS since the end of WW2, but, competition (shiai)

    Competition isn't the best way to improve your Judo...correct practice is, and, if you view competition as the most intense form of practice, then you will be even better off. If you are an adult, then ease into the competition carefully. It's intense, and you can get injured if you are not physically prepared as well as specifically trained judo-wise.

    You can still practice/learn the te-ashi tori waza if you like (leg grabs). I would not make them my "go to " techniques though, even if they were still legal in competition, as it would tend to take away from the more "major" throws that require you to turn you back or make closer contact with your opponent.

    [snip]
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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