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  1. Xiphiidae is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 11:46am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Skill measured in pounds.

    Lets say you are in a hypothetical fight with someone who is in every way identical to you except for two factors; firstly he has not spent any time actively training for martial arts, he may see it on tv, or watch tutorials on youtube, but no real instruction or sparring, and secondly this person outweighs you due to constant strength training.

    So here is my question, how much bigger than you could your no-skill double be before you were equal in a fight? What is your reasoning?



    Personally I find this question kinda tough but right now I'm going to put it at around 30lbs. I roll with people about that weight and at my skill level fairly frequently and don't get destroyed, but most of those guys are not bigger by 30 pounds of just muscle, and that strength would also be a factor in striking, which I would not have a major advantage in skill wise. For reference I am a 170 lb bjj white belt and have trained 3-4 nights a week for 10 months.
    Last edited by Xiphiidae; 10/09/2013 11:49am at . Reason: typos and grammar
  2. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 12:05pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Depends on you and your abilities, I'd say.

    Why the concern ?
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. killface is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 12:35pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The difference between 3 months of training and no training is huge, the difference between 1 year training or 1 year and 3 months training not so much. If the person you are fighting has no idea what is going to happen, he wont have much chances to out-muscle you.

    I like to think about skill as multiplying your strength. Lets say 1 is most efficient use of your strength, total mastery of skill. So you are 80 pounds, he is 160 pounds. He does not know hot to fight, like skill 0.1 so only uses 16 pounds of it. You being 0.5 in skill can use 40 pounds.

    Now you are a master, like be skill 1, he is 0.5. Pounds stay the same so it is total 80 vs 80. It is equal chance even-though there is a huge skill difference.

    I am totally making **** up but I could imagine something like this could be used to find find fair matches across people with very different skill level. Though you would probably just subtract 20 pounds for every belt rank less than the higher skilled guy or some other simpler rule.
  4. Xiphiidae is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 1:27pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Depends on you and your abilities, I'd say.

    Why the concern ?
    No concern just a curiosity. There is always talk of one fighter being a "big lightweight" or a "small light heavy", as well as "pound for pound" best fighters and I have often wondered about exactly how easy it would be to try to actually translate weight into skill.
  5. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 1:41pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    The difference between 3 months of training and no training is huge, the difference between 1 year training or 1 year and 3 months training not so much. If the person you are fighting has no idea what is going to happen, he wont have much chances to out-muscle you.

    I like to think about skill as multiplying your strength. Lets say 1 is most efficient use of your strength, total mastery of skill. So you are 80 pounds, he is 160 pounds. He does not know hot to fight, like skill 0.1 so only uses 16 pounds of it. You being 0.5 in skill can use 40 pounds.

    Now you are a master, like be skill 1, he is 0.5. Pounds stay the same so it is total 80 vs 80. It is equal chance even-though there is a huge skill difference.

    I am totally making **** up but I could imagine something like this could be used to find find fair matches across people with very different skill level. Though you would probably just subtract 20 pounds for every belt rank less than the higher skilled guy or some other simpler rule.
    Why would you want to do that? Most competitions have skill and weight divisions. We do in Judo, anyway.

    In general, the larger the size/strength difference, the more skill needed to overcome the larger/stronger (could be faster/meaner/tougher) opponent. I'm not sure that quantifying that is possible or necessary (as more than a though exercise).

    Even a lot more skill is not enough at times to overcome a larger size/strength//aggression/fill in the blank_____gap). Things like conditioning, disability due to old but healed injury (OK, I guess "attributes" is the catch-all phrase) come into play.

    It's bothersome to feel like you are better than a bigger training partner (maybe you really are) and still struggle or get your ass kicked. But that's what training is for.

    When I competed in open weight categories in Judo (against other black belts) I often lost simply because I did not have sufficient skill to overcome the difference in size or strength, even when the skill gap was fairly large in my favor.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 1:44pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphiidae View Post
    No concern just a curiosity. There is always talk of one fighter being a "big lightweight" or a "small light heavy", as well as "pound for pound" best fighters and I have often wondered about exactly how easy it would be to try to actually translate weight into skill.
    There is more to it than weight. How that weight is distributed (tall and lean, short and round, strong lower body weaker upper body, flexibility, other attributes.).

    Try throwing a short, round judoka sometime. Or a really tall skinny one. Or try punching a guy who is lighter but tall and skinny with longer reach. Lots of examples come to mind. Maybe the guy has a gut of some sort, but well conditioned abs...so you hit him in the abs and nothing happens,LOL !

    Or consider trying to pass guard on a guy with long and strong legs, but you have more upper body strength...
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. Bayonet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 2:26pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have a bad feeling I'm going to see this guy on YouTube triangle-choking a horse...
  8. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 2:26pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I am actively training and have the anaerobic fitness and cardio, and am calm.
    I am really not to worried about strength. Proper timing and leverage win out almost everytime. Unless the guy is so yoked out where he has single limbs stronger than my core + legs I just don't see it mattering much. If he is really yoked its a matter of just being calm and patient and working on being in a dominate safe position while they spaz out and turn into a puddle of quivering crap than making your move.

    Its actually a lot of fun to beat super strong aggressive players while not breaking much of a sweat by just making them work against themselves.

    But you know I am a grappler not a fighter so keep that context in mind.
  9. Krijgsman is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 2:27pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am 6'3" and about 235-230lbs. The little Japanese guest instructor that came to our club (maybe 5'3", like 130-140) tossed me with no trouble at all in randori. I might have given him trouble on the ground by being dead weight, but skill trumped size quite soundly there.

    I have had similar experience with the little bit of striking I have done, though I feel like its a bit easier to bum rush and crapple a striker and make up for skill with size/strength... assuming you can get ahold of them.
  10. killface is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 2:29pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Why would you want to do that?
    I was only interested in the theoretical part, which is interesting enough. It could make sense when you have not enough people to divide by skill but still want to give the noobs a chance. Some school-intern thing or something.

    And yes I agree with what you said. Fighting (well I guess I can keep it general) is fucking complex so you really can only provide simplifications and guesstimates in practice.
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