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  1. Cuddles is online now

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2013 11:25pm


     Style: being a fatty

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    Did you really just abbreviate center of gravity to c. of g. ???

    I can't decide if that is hilarious or horrible.
    I've been doing too much math recently, I thought that was function c(g) and couldn't understand what he meant.
  2. crappler is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 9:35am


     Style: Judo

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If your karate sucks, it's because you don't do karate. There may be all kinds of ridiculous **** coming out of karate dojos, but the fact is that karate is brutal, difficult, mostly effective and most of you can't fucking do it. In fact, I can't really do it. My karate sucks, but I bet it's better than 90% of yours.
    "We often joke -- and we really wish it were a joke -- that you will only encounter two basic problems with your 'self-defense' training.
    1) That it doesn't work
    2) That it does work"
    -Animal MacYoung
  3. W. Rabbit is offline
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    There's not enough words to describe my existence.

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 10:07am

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     Style: No Style

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    Did you really just abbreviate center of gravity to c. of g. ???

    I can't decide if that is hilarious or horrible.
    From now on I'm calling the lower dan tien my "d. of t."
  4. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 1:46pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    Did you really just abbreviate center of gravity to c. of g. ???

    I can't decide if that is hilarious or horrible.
    Did you really abbreviate "doctor" to Dr."?

    Cause--y'know--an abbreviated lie is still a lie, both hilarious and horrible.
  5. BJMills is online now

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    Posted On:
    10/26/2013 1:01pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was recently watching a documentary on kudo and was reminded of this thread. They talked about using something similar to a kyokoshin stance in close exchanges and switching to a deeper more shotokan looking stance at range to help defend against takedowns.

    I'm not entirely sure I buy the strategy but hey, can't say they don't pressure test so maybe there's something to it.

    That being said, when you get to the knock kneed heay back leg wing Chun stance I honestly can't see any sort of advantage. That and the emphasis on trapping just seems like a formula for defeat. It's like anti fighting. Teaching people to be worse than they would be untrained. Same with crazy **** like monkey or drunken style Kung fu, you practice stuff that will make you worse.

    My argument would be that if pressure testing makes you unlearn habits taught to you by a style then yes it's a bad style.
  6. Holy Moment is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/26/2013 3:03pm

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     Style: Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wait a minute...

    Here's a video.

  7. Lv1Sierpinski is online now

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    Posted On:
    10/26/2013 11:34pm


     Style: BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pressure testing only works when it's 'novel' or 'general' pressure.

    What do I mean by that?

    I can train in any given style, and if my opponents are within my style, then even if they're going as hard as they can, there are some elements of pressure I won't have to deal with (maybe I don't need take-down defense, or to cover my head because no head shots, etc.).

    The arts generally regarded as 'good' will have been developed with that 'general' pressure testing during development, so even if I'm not rolling AND getting punched in the face, because BJJ was developed in an environment where getting punched was a distinct possibility, a lot of the general aspects translate well (e.g. if I can get someone in my guard, I've got a decent chance of getting my face out of range should I want to, hugging close and working for the back keeps me pretty safe, especially against someone not knowing anything on the ground).

    A similar argument can be made for plenty of other styles (thanks to the general hard-asses developing them).

    When the rule-set stylizes the activity (and when cultural/economic influences play a part as well) then you're off down the path of degrading the effectiveness. Economic in the sense that, if I make money teaching something, the temptation to tweak things can be great...very much a modern thing, dramatically accelerated by US marketing techniques.

    You can only develop and respond to the pressure you're under. When the encounter drifts outside your rule-set or intensity you'll naturally do something to respond.

    That my style might not prepare me as effectively for that element of an encounter makes it 'bad' I don't think is accurate. My BJJ in a fight, even at grappling range, would look quite different if I'm defending against and trying to throw strikes. The difference between 'not as effective as' and 'bad' are quite different.

    I would say the OP has missed the point of the 'acceptance' of some styles around here. Bullies have always been against people and/or claims being disingenuous. I can say (and have said without issue) that I had a blast training wushu, that it's a hell of a workout and that those flexible swords make a cool 'snappy' sound...it's when I say it makes me a great fighter that people can (and should) go nuts.

    There are no inherently bad styles as pastimes and hobbies.

    There are bad styles for fighting...to suggest this is a new idea is laughable.
  8. crappler is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/31/2013 9:43am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!


    This is another reason krotty rulz. Because you don't just get krotty...you get all the crazy **** that goes with it!!!
    "We often joke -- and we really wish it were a joke -- that you will only encounter two basic problems with your 'self-defense' training.
    1) That it doesn't work
    2) That it does work"
    -Animal MacYoung
  9. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2013 10:18am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dork Angel View Post
    A side on stance is fine for long range but as the distance closes it needs to become more and more square on (think fencer - kickboxer - boxer - judoka/wrestler).

    As for deep stances, I am wondering if somewhere along the way exercises done solely to develop leg strength and endurance slowly became part of the fighting side of the style when they were never meant to be?

    While we're on wild theories I also suspect Wing Chun was the first pure self-defense style. And by this I mean designed to take on untrained thugs and drunks but not anyone with real fight training or experience.
    Judo and boxing and fencing use offset stances...at least anybody who knows what they are doing does.

    In fact, on of the biggest problems I have in teaching judo is to get students to maintain their right or left foot forward "stance" (posture, really) (migi or hidari shizentai...right or left natural posture), instead of shuffling their feet around and worse.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2013 11:43am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    True dat.

    Also, though, I've found people who do the deep-stance thing, once they start crosstraining in nage-waza, have some advantage. Tai-otoshi, for example, might be easier for those who have a lot of practice with zenkutsu-dachi, while kokutsu-dachi is a good base for knee-wheels and kiba-dachi, side-on to the opponent, is a good start to such techniques as o-goshi.

    Getting used to dropping your c. of g. below your adversary's is a benefit, and those low Shotokan stances--essentially useless in pure striking--can give a good base for nage-waza from the clinch under proper crosstraining conditions.

    As for one-punch-one-kill and anything else that's swordfighting-based but has no swords...**** it. It ain't Karate.
    I think the low karate stances you are positing are more equivalent to jigohontai (migi or hidari) in Judo. Being defensive postures, they are low on mobility and speed, higher on stability. In Judo, they are basically holdovers from various koryu grappling forms, probably derived form grappling in armor. That's speaking in general. Some nage waza work better from jigo hontai stances than others, particularly some sutemi waza.

    Anyway, I see your point about getting used to lowering the c.g., as that is usually a problem for people new to Judo. The low stances can develop good strength in the hips and lower body. The better practitioners I watched on youtube also moved well from their hara.



    I can see the relationship to Tai Otoshi clearly. I imagine that someone who is well versed in this stance might be able to better understand how to be stable in the ending posture for Tai Otoshi, which is similar. One issue in Judo is that most of the throws learned at first have both feet on the ground and between hip and shoulder width apart. Then along comes Tai Otoshi, with it's wide legged stance.

    kokutsu-dachi and knee wheels

    Well, sort of... the position and weight distribution have similarities. The back foot/leg is oriented incorrectly for say, Hiza Guruma (toes pointed straight forward), which is a major problem students have in learning Hiza Guruma (and Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi for that matter).

    kiba dachi (horse stance/straddle stance)
    http://www.skkifwatford.co.uk/Techni...Kiba-dachi.JPG

    This is basically jigohontai of judo, basic defensive posture.

    For O Goshi...well, I can kinda see your point, but the splayed out knees and feet far apart are more like O Goshi in it's older forms (like Mifune does in this video). Not useless for close grappling, by any means, but a bit off the "modern" standard for O Goshi.






    I understand you are not drawing direct analogies between the stances you noted and nage waza (assuming judo on my part). I see the karate stances as perhaps building basic strength in the lower body, awareness of hara (c.g.), etc. With proper cross training, they could be helpful.

    I tend to teach judo (nage waza) as more mobile and based on movement and timing (tai sabaki, also used in karate obviously). I think that one could take a more time to build the stability and awareness of the hara (c.g.) in the lower body, but time is of the essence, and their ain't much of it, LOL.

    Nice post, got me to thinking !
    Last edited by BKR; 10/31/2013 11:52am at . Reason: Forgot Mifune O Goshi Video
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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