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  1. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 10:12am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    Actually goodlun is right on this one. First of all the situation in China has improved a lot in the recent years. I wouldn�t even call it a low wage country. The real horrible things, with the child labor happen in Bangladesh. Low wages are not even that much of a point for a company to produce in China. At least not as much a some might think. There is infrastructure, logistic oh and when you need some special electronic parts the company that produces them is just nearby. If you knew a bit about China, you would know that the Chinese government under Deng explicitly wanted to get foreign investors into China to get the know how and improve the economy. And it worked out great, as we can see. I don�t see anything wrong with an international company taking advantage of low wages or other regional benefits, especially when they pay above average. (Which means they are better(!!) than the average jobs). These kind of investments can help to improve the economy and drive the wages higher in the end. So no Apple ain�t no evil.

    The discussion about people buying useless **** needs to be a discussion about marketing.

    The other discussion about the child labor is more interesting. On could argue that the import of products produced by child labor should be banned. If the poor country has a functional government that offers free schooling, this can be a good thing but on the other hand you remove a source of income for the population. For the developed country (lets take USA) that would have the benefit of protecting the economy at home from such "unfair" wages. Don't have an clear opinion on the issue yet but is worth discussing.

    Oh and someone said the problem with the US would be the lower wages. That is bullshit. The cost of products can fall through higher productivity so you can afford more with the same wage, anyway.

    The big problem that we need to speak about is this:

    Cumulative Current Account Balance

    See if some country imports more stuff that it exports or the other way round, stuff is not exactly sustainable.

    Yes China has improved greatly: Click image for larger version. 

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  2. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 10:13am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Go and see REAL poverty, the type of poverty where a family actually runs the risk of starving to death. REAL poverty where kids are put to work.
    But do not ask what caused this poverty.
  3. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 10:18am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Not all profit is exploitation. The problem here is you have an informed opinion on a matter and are all emotional oh think of the children.
    So lets lay down what happens.
    A Western company goes into a 3rd world country because the labor is cheaper. Now since the labor is so cheap cents and hour what they typically do is pay 2 times the going rate to get the creme of the crop. What this actually does is begin to eliminate child labor. Thats right all of a sudden families are now making enough money that they don't have to have their children working as well. Not only that but foreign capital is flowing in so they can participate on the world market having greater access to goods and services. The whole communities economy improves. It brings them out of a type of poverty I can only assume you have never seen with your own eyes.

    Wages continue to rise in fact they rise to the point where the company needs to move on to the next shithole to start the process all over. Leaving behind a community that can actually feed its people.

    So take your self righteous attitude and go some place where as an American visitor you get flocked by children begging for money or trying to sell you trinkets and gum or try and take your wallet. Go and see REAL poverty, the type of poverty where a family actually runs the risk of starving to death. REAL poverty where kids are put to work.

    BTW before you say I am cherry picking where is your evidence of said evil?
    You must mean besides the part where they do it to avoid U.S. Labor laws, taxes, regulations etc. Where is my evidence that using children for labor is evil?? Really?? Choosing profit over human life yup that's evil.
  4. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 10:43am

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    But do not ask what caused this poverty.
    LOL at you thinking that capitalism causes poverty. Most of these places with the type of poverty we are talking about are coming off of subsistence farming being the driving market force. They are poor because they lack access to markets and lack goods to put up in said markets. They are stuck purely with what can be produced locally. This makes them very poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    You must mean besides the part where they do it to avoid U.S. Labor laws, taxes, regulations etc.
    They in large part open up shop else where to avoid the US labor rates. Less to do with regulation and the what not. They funny thing is the labor laws in most 3rd world countries at least on paper are MORE strict than here. So the US laws are now the arbitrator of what is good and moral in the world? Our voice is the sole voice of what a company and should be able to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    Where is my evidence that using children for labor is evil?? Really??
    Yes try and actually making that argument. As of right now your failing it BIG time. Also for that matter how about you provide evidence that Western companies are a significant source of child labor you will quickly find that they indeed are not. They are one of the biggest contributors to the decline of child labor.
    So your blaming the "evil" companies for a problem that they largely solve. Good job ass hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    Choosing profit over human life yup that's evil.
    Bitch please. More statements of ignorance. This is hardly standard operation procedure.

    So once again you keep proving my point your a fucking moron. You are arguing about a system that you know nothing about. You keep making shallow arguments with nothing to back them up other than trying to get an emotional oh these poor abused exploited peoples. When in fact they are very very very happy to see western capital as it greatly improves their lives. I showed evidence of this all you did was call it cherry picking despite the method of data collection being included. Yet all you have offered is oh think of the children.

    Yet you are not thinking of the children you are so disconnected from their reality. You are disconnected from the fact that they don't have running water, appropriate levels of sanitation, reliable electricity, ect. You don't understand that if they don't work they do go hungry. That if western companies are their or not they are going to be working because they have to or they will not survive. So once again when a western company comes into this type of community and pays x2 times the going rate and offer education and build the needed infrastructure and get these communities onto a global market please do explain to me how this is exploitation.
    It sounds pretty damn mutually beneficial to me. You know the same way getting up every morning and going to work is mutually beneficial for you and your employer.
  5. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 10:46am

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    LOL at you thinking that capitalism causes poverty.
    Do you read minds?
  6. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 10:52am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Do you read minds?
    I am sorry if that wasn't your implicit argument.
  7. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 12:35pm

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    You do realize that it is referred to as "exploitation" right?? To say "well their lives suck anyway no reason we can't profit off of their pain" is still pretty fucking evil.
    What I said was that a kid forced to work by his family will be forced to work (by his family). Sue me for being a cultural relativist when it comes to (poor) people and how they raise their kids.

    Do you condemn child labor when its strictly locals "enslaving" their own kids for agriculture and stuff, or is it only bad when they send them to work for a Western corporation?

    I think American kids should have a period in school where they produce something. I think in addition to any useful stuff that comes out of it, that it would be a good learning experience for them in an area that America is sorely lacking.
  8. -TANK- is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 12:58pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    What I said was that a kid forced to work by his family will be forced to work (by his family). Sue me for being a cultural relativist when it comes to (poor) people and how they raise their kids.

    Do you condemn child labor when its strictly locals "enslaving" their own kids for agriculture and stuff, or is it only bad when they send them to work for a Western corporation?

    I think American kids should have a period in school where they produce something. I think in addition to any useful stuff that comes out of it, that it would be a good learning experience for them in an area that America is sorely lacking.
    Excellent
    And call these productive periods, apprenticeship- any revenue, outside nuetral is given back to the program to enhance equipment, even pay for benefits for those (ONLY) that contributed. Super Idea, I am gonna steal this one here. Thanks, your haircut is in the mail.
  9. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 1:14pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    What I said was that a kid forced to work by his family will be forced to work (by his family). Sue me for being a cultural relativist when it comes to (poor) people and how they raise their kids.

    Do you condemn child labor when its strictly locals "enslaving" their own kids for agriculture and stuff, or is it only bad when they send them to work for a Western corporation?

    I think American kids should have a period in school where they produce something. I think in addition to any useful stuff that comes out of it, that it would be a good learning experience for them in an area that America is sorely lacking.
    Mandatory ROP?
  10. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2013 1:24pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Mandatory ROP?
    Makes more sense than some of the stuff they make kids learn.

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