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  1. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2013 7:07pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    can you source this?
    Not easily no, I would have to go back through some old chicano studies textbooks which I have very little interest in doing. I am willing to withdraw the Myans as an example since I am not willing to source it.
  2. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
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    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    Well probably since we developed division of labor.

    The new thing about capitalism is the role unemployment plays in it. In feudalism even slaves get feed because someone owns them and they have an interest in keeping them alive, providing a form of social security. Peasants, although poor, had the means to keep them-self alive through their labor because they had a bit of land. Unemployment in the capitalist sense did no really exist.

    On the other hand in capitalism unemployment plays a vital role for the economy. Why is that so? First imagine everyone has work. You have a great business idea, got the money everything, need workers? Oh ****. Yeah you can try to steal some from the competition but that is costly and takes time. So unemployment works as a buffer for the economy. Also it keeps the wages down and motivates the workers (fear of unemployment).

    So one who wants capitalism also wants the modern welfare state. Someone needs to keep the unemployed from starving.

    The point is, while poverty has existed in most societies, there also was social security.

    Social security is what is important, more important than the wealth gap. Even if you make good money for a while, when you can loose your job and your house every day out of the blue it ain’t worth that much.

    Did your parents have any children that lived?
  3. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Shut the **** up. You have 0 concept of historical social well being.
    Capalisim has and still does provide more social well being for the poor than any other goods and labor distrubtion system. More importantly it keeps the largest portion of a given population out of poverty than any other system.

    The expression "Starving children in China" has very real roots
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

    ask my wife and other Soviets about standing in line for hours to just get their food.

    So yeah lets not act like Capitalism is the source of poverty.
    You're such an odd liberal. Are you sure we can't fix you? Sometimes you make-a me laugh. Sometimes you make-a me cry.
  4. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2013 7:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    ask my wife and other Soviets about standing in line for hours to just get their food.
    Boris Godunov approves your post. Only one of every three russians starved to death under his mandate.

    Serioulsy, you better not go into commies famines vs capitalist famines.
    Last edited by DCS; 10/22/2013 7:39pm at .
  5. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2013 7:42pm

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    Apropos of nothing, "Seminole Wind" is playing on the radio...

    just sharing !
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2013 7:54pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Serioulsy, you better not go into commies famines vs capitalist famines.
    Would be very hard to do given the ability of capitalist societies to feed their people.
  7. killface is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2013 5:23am


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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Shut the **** up. You have 0 concept of historical social well being.
    Capalisim has and still does provide more social well being for the poor than any other goods and labor distrubtion system. More importantly it keeps the largest portion of a given population out of poverty than any other system.
    You need to read more carefully. I was not arguing against capitalism but arguing that capitalism and welfare state need to go together. I was showing an important difference between capitalism and feudalism. Capitalism is superior to feudalism, did I really need to write that?

    I will ignore the soviet stuff for now, whatever that has to do with the topic.

    In most economic systems starvation follows because of an REAL lack of food. Capitalism is different, as there can be enough food available but people can still be starving. That is why it requires government intervention. Makes sense?


    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    So yeah lets not act like Capitalism is the source of poverty.
    Capitalism does require relative(!) poverty of the big majority of the population.

    As I said poverty started with the division of labor.
  8. DCS is offline
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    10/23/2013 7:15am

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Would be very hard to do given the ability of capitalist societies to feed their people.
    Define 'their people'.

    Were not 19th century Irish and Indians who starved to death british subjects? Were they living under a communist regime? Maybe they were not 'their people' so they don't count.

    Were the russians who starved to death in late 19th century Tsarist Russia living under a communist regime or were they not 'their people' too?

    I think you are falling in a pars pro toto fallacy. 'USA' is not 'capitalism'. USA is a place where capitalism succeded at avoding 'their people" from starving to death but the same can't be said about other capitalist countries.
  9. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2013 11:01am

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    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    In most economic systems starvation follows because of an REAL lack of food.
    Yes something seriously avoided by having a large market system, futures, and other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    Capitalism is different, as there can be enough food available but people can still be starving. That is why it requires government intervention. Makes sense?
    Your right Capitalism is different you have the choice to starve or not. You get to make choices as to how you use your resources. You get to pick which priorities are important to you.
    So yes while some people go hungry rarely does someone starve to death in capitalism.
    If you are hungry in a capitalist society it is of your own choosing.

    [QUOTE=killface;2802430]
    So tell me why should the guy who made the proper choices in life, have to pay for the poor choices of the other guy?

    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    Capitalism does require relative(!) poverty of the big majority of the population.
    Don't confuse income disparity with poverty.
    Their was a day in which I went down to
    http://www.symbolicmotors.com/
    On that day I seriously considered buying a Ferrari. It was ~$200,000 I didn't end up buying it but at the time I could have. Their where how ever cars there I could not even begin to approach. The two Bugatti Veyrons they had to be exact. So while I was looking at a car that cost as much as the average house their was a class of people looking to spend as much money on a car as my 1.6 million dollar house. The fact that those people exist does not make me any poorer.
    Now cut to the guy that lives in the 200k house he isn't poor, and he sure the hell wasn't poorer due to my success.

    He has a good comfortable life.

    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    As I said poverty started with the division of labor.
    You mean since hunters and gathers?
    You know hunters got to eat more meat. Making them richer by that standard.
  10. goodlun is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    19th century
    In the 19th century the food market wasn't global so it was less able to absorb production problems. That being said during the 19th century you still had less starvation in capitalist societies than others, when you had adverse agricultural conditions.

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