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  1. -TANK- is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2013 10:52pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Scam is probably not the best word choice for me.
    How about an economically disadvantaged service for most.


    What is the difference if I eat that 100 grand now vs having paid it out over the last 7 years? Lets say I get hit with a 100k medical bill now. The payments on it would still be right about what I would have been paying all along for insurance.

    Insurance is about risk analysis. The risk to cost ratio has always put the cost of insurance at greater than the risk. This is of course exactly how insurance works. For them to make a profit the cost has to be greater than the risk. This goes for all types of insurance. I only carry car insurance because its mandated by both the state and in the case of the one car I do have a note on the lender.
    Great thread-

    Insurance companies cannot operate at revenue nuetral. They MUST profit and must have reserves. Get over it. If they are smart and insure good risks, they make a profit. Good business. Call Warren Buffett. But you have a problem with that? Insuring a hang glider? Insuring a guy who paints houses? Guaranteed claims...broken bones and lung disease.

    Insurance IS about risk. Transfer of risk, elimination of risk, reduction of risk, the analysis is done behind the scenes but you will never see it.

    Insurance works off a theory called the law of large numbers and is aleatory and does works well when government leaves it alone- othewise they will screw it up. Medicare is not a government plan. Private insurance does the work...

    Kudos to Devil for his solid defense of what to my feeling, it is not my job to take care of anyone except my family and my money is for that purpose.

    The industries that are built, ran and maintained due to the insurance industry are epic.

    So for those who feel that insurance companies are evil, do some homework. Many are stock companies, many others are mutual companies, ie owned by the policy owners. You all probably deal with both. They probably benefit allot of your family members in many ways.

    Bottom line is that whole shutdown bullshit is based on one party, creating a healthcare plan in the dead of the night, behind closed doors so to speak. (the real place to start reform is TORT reform, but since most lawmakers ARE attorneys, this will NEVER happen- the next thing, is Rx companies must be reined in)

    This ACA will screw the American people- it needs an overhaul, about half is junk, and mark my words, the attempt to insure all Americans will never happen, thus it fails as the 'law of large numbers', which demands such involvement, mathematically.

    There will still and always be a separate class of insureds. The haves, and have not's. The have not's will THINK they have great insurance. Alas, they are...well...refer to Devils posts...Well said and on point. I would nickname Devil if I thought it would stick to "Bootstrap"...and from his attitude, would hire him as well. Nothing keeping that one down...but I digress.

    We would not be here today if BHO had reached across the isle and not RAMMED the ACA down our throats, and we wouldn't be staring down the barrel of a gun, with a blank in the chamber...

    The government is too big. They do not know what I need, This SHUTDOWN should be all about balancing...and nobody focuses on that.
  2. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2013 11:30pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    This ACA will screw the American people- it needs an overhaul, about half is junk, and mark my words, the attempt to insure all Americans will never happen, thus it fails as the 'law of large numbers', which demands such involvement, mathematically.
    Massachusetts has a nation leading 97% of it's 6.6 million residents covered using this very idea. That leaves roughly 200,000 too many uncovered but better than...

    As of 2011, New Mexico had 80.4% coverage. That's roughly 400,000 or twice the uninsured in a state with less than a third of the population.

    The government is evil for trying to change that? People aren't thinking clearly about this. Hating the government, but HMO's...don't mess with their bloated profits.


    To put that in perspective...
    Life Expectancy:
    Japan 83
    Switzerland 83
    Canada 82
    France 82
    Germany 81
    United States 79
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2013 12:41am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wait what? Is your silly ass really trying to tie health insurance spending and HMOs to lowered life expectancy?

    Way to correlate bullshit. Next time you post something make sure you get something to back up your implied claim. Our life expectancy isn't lower because of people needing healthcare coverage, hell it rose for DECDADES until this weird thing called Fast Food was created. Then it slowed, then it level out and now they are saying the next generation may be the first to actually go backwards
    Shiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttt There's a reason that we spend more than damn near more money on healthcare than every fucking nation on this planet.


    What are they saying is the cause?


    Obesity.

    http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/mar2005/nia-16.htm

    Over the next few decades, life expectancy for the average American could decline by as much as 5 years unless aggressive efforts are made to slow rising rates of obesity, according to a team of scientists supported in part by the National Institute on Aging (NIA), a component of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) of the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS).

    The U.S. could be facing its first sustained drop in life expectancy in the modern era, the researchers say, but this decline is not inevitable if Americans � particularly younger ones � trim their waistlines or if other improvements outweigh the impact of obesity. The new report in the March 17, 2005 issue of The New England Journal of Medicine appears little more than a year after the DHHS unveiled a new national education campaign and research strategy to combat obesity and excessive weight.

    http://www.loyolamedicine.org/childr...-short-obesity

    MELROSE PARK, Ill. – For the first time in history, the next generation will not live longer than their parents. “Diseases such as Type II diabetes, high blood pressure, heart conditions and joint deterioration - what were once considered ‘adult’ diseases - are regularly being diagnosed in children, due to the prevalence of obesity,” said Jessica Bartfield, MD, internal medicine and medical weight-loss specialist at Gottlieb Memorial Hospital, part of the Loyola University Health System. “What is particularly tragic is that studies have suggested that obesity in children today may contribute to a two- to five-year decline in their life expectancy, shorter than that of their parents.

    I learned proper eating habits in school, on TV with PSAs and from my parents. I didn't and don't need a doctor to tell me how to correctly eat.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 10/07/2013 12:45am at .
  4. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2013 3:31am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are you suggesting that millions without adequate care doesn't affect overall life expectancy? How does that work?

    The US spends more, yet its people are less healthy. Preventative care, and insurance for the sick will make the population more healthy.
  5. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2013 4:03am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    Insurance companies cannot operate at revenue nuetral. They MUST profit and must have reserves. Get over it.
    You missed my point. In an insurance situation any profit the company makes off of me is my own wasted money.

    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    If they are smart and insure good risks, they make a profit. Good business. Call Warren Buffett. But you have a problem with that? Insuring a hang glider? Insuring a guy who paints houses? Guaranteed claims...broken bones and lung disease.
    That good profit as you say is the wasted consumer money. Insurance doesn't create anything. It takes more of your money in than it puts out for the services you can get without them.

    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    Insurance IS about risk.
    No ****, this has been explicitly stated

    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    Transfer of risk, elimination of risk, reduction of risk, the analysis is done behind the scenes but you will never see it.
    Yes everything they do is to make sure that they take in more money than they will have to payout this is how insurance works we all know this. This is why for the most part its not a great investment for an individual to get. They have factored your risk and charge an appropriate amount to exceed what they will have to pay out.

    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    Insurance works off a theory called the law of large numbers and is aleatory and does works well when government leaves it alone- othewise they will screw it up. Medicare is not a government plan. Private insurance does the work...
    ACA leaves it alone. The insurances companies had huge buy in during the drafting of the legislation trust me they are VERY happy with ACA. Their customer base is going to swell. Guess what private insurance is still doing the work in ACA.

    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    Kudos to Devil for his solid defense of what to my feeling, it is not my job to take care of anyone except my family and my money is for that purpose.
    Its cute you actually think your going to pay in more than your going to get out.

    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    So for those who feel that insurance companies are evil,
    No one not a single person has made this claim in this thread at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    Bottom line is that whole shutdown bullshit is based on one party, creating a healthcare plan in the dead of the night,
    You mean the healthcare plan that is largely based on the one in MA created by a republican thinktank?

    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    (the real place to start reform is TORT reform,
    and right here is where your showing your ignorance. This is probably because you believe in the mythical frivolous lawsuit. Tort limits the liability this is not a good thing by any stretch. It ties the hands of Judges and Jurries to award what they think are appropriate damages. Often setting caps at very low levels often around $250,000 sometimes these caps care well bellow what is even needed to cover the real damages done in continuing medical bills. A tort suit is often ones only weapon to bring about compliance of very large companies. Tort reform sounds good until you actually need to sue someone than you start to see how much bullshit it really is.


    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    is Rx companies must be reined in)
    So its ok for insurance companies that don't create anything new to make a profit but Rx companies that actually make products that save lives can't make a profit? Rx companies the take huge risk and spend tons of cash in R&D are not allowed to reap what they sow? Or are you talking about the errors that they make which you just said should be protected by tort reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    This ACA will screw the American people- it needs an overhaul, about half is junk, and mark my words, the attempt to insure all Americans will never happen, thus it fails as the 'law of large numbers', which demands such involvement, mathematically.
    Do you think for yourself at all or do you just listen to talking points all day?
    How is everyone not using the law of large numbers? The individual mandate is the large numbers.


    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    There will still and always be a separate class of insureds. The haves, and have not's.
    I am all for the haves and have not's except when the data show the haves will have even more when you give the have nots certain things. I don't support that ACA cause I am some ***** liberal, the economics behind it gasp actually shows it saves us more money in the long run and makes the plebeian cast better workers.
    Don't fool yourself your part of the plebeian cast. Its cute how you don't think you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    but I digress.
    To do that you would have had to made a point.


    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    We would not be here today if BHO had reached across the isle and not RAMMED the ACA down our throats, and we wouldn't be staring down the barrel of a gun, with a blank in the chamber...
    Horseshit. The republicans didn't want to play ball at all. So **** them. BHO took a republican think tank form of health care reform that has been very popular in the state it was introduced in. One that has shown to be financially prudent. Offered it up. You could talk about all this ramming **** if you know we actually ended up with say a single payer system but we didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    The government is too big. They do not know what I need, This SHUTDOWN should be all about balancing...and nobody focuses on that.
    You might have had a point here except for two factors.
    One this isn't government run health care, its private health care with government subsides. Two the budget office has shown in the long run it improves our economy.
  6. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2013 4:06am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja View Post
    Are you suggesting that millions without adequate care doesn't affect overall life expectancy? How does that work?

    The US spends more, yet its people are less healthy. Preventative care, and insurance for the sick will make the population more healthy.
    I will suggest that. I would suggest healthcare system has a lot less to do with life span vs quality of life. Most of the **** people go to the Dr. for isn't going to kill them or shorten their life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    I wish you were a better poster. I don't enjoy talking to you. I love to argue with thought provoking people or even outright nutjobs like Boby. At least he balances his lack of intelligence with entertaining drama.

    With you I'm always just left with an unsatisfied feeling, like why is this weird corny ************ talking to me?
    Sorry I meant to up-vote this not down-vote it.
  7. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2013 6:40am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja View Post
    The US spends more, yet its people are less healthy. Preventative care, and insurance for the sick will make the population more healthy.
    The more impoverished and less healthy americans became, the better for the euro-commies and hungry chinese. I approve of that.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2013 7:46am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja View Post
    Are you suggesting that millions without adequate care doesn't affect overall life expectancy?
    Did I say that? This is you and your fucking dumbass LOGICAL FALLACIES again. We are that low because we eat like ****. I sourced my claim, source yous.

    How does that work?
    Life expectancy rose because scientists were ERADICATING diseases you know, back when PREVENTATIVE HEALTHCARE DID NOT EXIST. You know back when they pushed PROPER DIET and EXERCISE.

    The US spends more, yet its people are less healthy. Preventative care, and insurance for the sick will make the population more healthy.
    What did I just type earlier. Preventative care doesn't stop high blood pressure because an entire culture eats fried food. Looks at blacks and Mexicans. Preventative care doesn't stop mother fuckers from EATING AT EVERY FAST FOOD JOINT they see. Source every fucking race. The ACA isn't going to stop dumb mother fuckers from being unhealthy. The poor people you are stumping for are going to still be poor AND FAT. They'll just be poor and fat with healthcare. Oh wait, those same motherfuckers already have the free medical system that is still in place and our life expectancy STILL DROPS.

    So, yes, if exactly what you think I am saying go ahead. No, if we go up to 79.5 or even 80 your point will not be proven.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 10/07/2013 7:49am at .
  9. OwlMatt is online now

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2013 8:13am


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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by -TANK- View Post
    Bottom line is that whole shutdown bullshit is based on one party, creating a healthcare plan in the dead of the night, behind closed doors so to speak. (the real place to start reform is TORT reform, but since most lawmakers ARE attorneys, this will NEVER happen- the next thing, is Rx companies must be reined in)
    Wrong on two counts. First, Obamacare is not a secret back room deal. It was debated hotly on the legislative floor, where the Republicans were able to get a lot of concessions and amendments, and we all got to watch it play out on the news.

    Second, Obamacare didn't cause the shutdown. What caused the shutdown was a minority of the House Republicans trying to defeat Obamacare by means other than the legislative process.

    This ACA will screw the American people- it needs an overhaul, about half is junk, and mark my words, the attempt to insure all Americans will never happen, thus it fails as the 'law of large numbers', which demands such involvement, mathematically.
    Cool, but let's amend it according to the established legislative process, rather than being whiny children and refusing to let the government function until we get our way.

    There will still and always be a separate class of insureds. The haves, and have not's. The have not's will THINK they have great insurance. Alas, they are...well...refer to Devils posts...Well said and on point. I would nickname Devil if I thought it would stick to "Bootstrap"...and from his attitude, would hire him as well. Nothing keeping that one down...but I digress.
    I should warn you: Devil doesn't give reach-arounds.

    We would not be here today if BHO had reached across the isle and not RAMMED the ACA down our throats, and we wouldn't be staring down the barrel of a gun, with a blank in the chamber...
    By "RAMMED the ACA down our throats", do you mean "won a vote in Congress"? Because that's what they did. You can't claim that it's the will of the people when you win a vote and then complain that something is being rammed down your throat when you lose one.

    The government is too big. They do not know what I need, This SHUTDOWN should be all about balancing...and nobody focuses on that.
    The shutdown was never anything but an anti-Obamacare stunt by a minority of House Republicans. The group making this happen isn't big enough to win any votes, so why should anyone feel obligated to compromise with them?
  10. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2013 8:20am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    It was debated hotly on the legislative floor, where the Republicans were able to get a lot of concessions and amendments
    Bullshit: http://rsc.scalise.house.gov/uploade...2--8.31.10.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    Second, Obamacare didn't cause the shutdown. What caused the shutdown was a minority of the House Republicans trying to defeat Obamacare by means other than the legislative process.
    I think you need to look up "minority," in the dictionary.

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