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  1. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 4:51pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by svt2026 View Post
    This appears to me the attacker is holding a knife and the other person is suppose to defend as an actual attack. Am I correct in this... If I am the defender is taking a lot of damage from an edged weapon and his whole strategy is working against him.
    The Aikido defenses against a knife that you usually see in a typical dojo are not realistic in the first place, in that uke typically comes in from long range with a single stabbing or cutting motion. I don't think they're intended to be real knife defenses, but rather more like a training exercise in tai sabaki, timing, etc. There must be a similar reason for involving the knife in this type of randori. Even so, there seems to be no real regard for the knife in this video -- its almost as though holding the knife is a disadvantage for uke because he only has one free hand to grab nage with.

    Back to the original question, I don't see how you can have live Aikido sparring, unless you're content with something that looks more like MMA with hakamas. As was said in OP, without striking there can be no Aikido live training, because Aikido techniques are often "set up" by the threat of a strike, which causes uke to move a particular way.

    In my old Aikido dojo, the more experienced people trained with unplanned full power or close to full power attacks, but there was still the expectation that Aikido form would be respected, i.e., attacks from two steps away, no one was going to be hit hard in the face, no one was going to shoot for your legs, etc. This is about the best you can do for Aikido live training.

    Bottom line -- here's an exact quote from Mitsugi Saotome Sensei, the head of Aikido Schools of Ueshiba (ASU), during a seminar: "Aikido not for fighting. You want to fight? Take karate or judo."
  2. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 4:53pm


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Haven't posted here for a few months, so allow me the luxury of lubricating my Chamber of Secrets with a healthy blob of "In my humble opinion"...

    Try thinking of Aikido as an illustration. Most aptly, as an exploded diagram.

    The combatants have been moved further apart.
    The techniques are moved to the extremity of the limbs to allow a clearer view.
    The action has been slowed down for greater legibility
    Hero & Villian roles have been assigned and labelled for clarity

    Then, to top it off, all movements are drawn out and exagerrated to labour each point.

    Thus, some pretty non-instinctual movements can be demonstrated and practiced, and you have a somewhat physical "theory lesson" that is not teaching techniques, but concepts.

    Bring what you worked on in your theory session to your alive classes, the same as you bring what you worked on in your exercise session.

    Cross-train by any and all means, but you don't fight in the squat rack.


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  3. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 5:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So basically, you're saying that aikido is this:

    and people are complaining that that engine will never work, because the parts aren't even connected properly?
  4. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 5:10pm


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pretty much yes, and that once they connect it, it still needs to go into a functional vehicle, or it's pointless.


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  5. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 5:14pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    So basically, you're saying that aikido is this:

    and people are complaining that that engine will never work, because the parts aren't even connected properly?
    Aikido is like that picture of an engine drawn by an engineer. The engine might work, but only after a mechanic gets his hands dirty putting it together, tuning it up, and making it run. The end result probably wont look exactly like the picture.
  6. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 5:14pm


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Although, I take that analogy further to describe a major fault.
    Aikido today, has a lot of practitioners who think the engine will work in its current condition, and take it on faith despite never having sat inside a car.


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  7. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 5:48pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignorami View Post
    Although, I take that analogy further to describe a major fault.
    Aikido today, has a lot of practitioners who think the engine will work in its current condition, and take it on faith despite never having sat inside a car.
    Never having sat in a car is right. Thing is, I've learned that not everyone trains for the same reasons, and that's more common in Aikido than in other systems.

    I once trained with an Aikido teacher who tried to bring it down to earth. For example, when training us with a knife, he taught how to attack before he taught how to defend -- uke was required to retract the hand and make multiple stabs or slashes. He also spent time teaching his students how to throw a real punch (he was a uechi ryu practitioner). He was not popular tho, because he was not doing the long flowing movements of "classical" aikido. He eventually had to close his school, and I quit the system because I never found anyone who could teach this way. It's a shame because I think Aikido has a lot offer, but the fighting aspect must be taken seriously for it to be of any use.
  8. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 6:50pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Never having sat in a car is right. Thing is, I've learned that not everyone trains for the same reasons, and that's more common in Aikido than in other systems.

    I once trained with an Aikido teacher who tried to bring it down to earth. For example, when training us with a knife, he taught how to attack before he taught how to defend -- uke was required to retract the hand and make multiple stabs or slashes. He also spent time teaching his students how to throw a real punch (he was a uechi ryu practitioner). He was not popular tho, because he was not doing the long flowing movements of "classical" aikido. He eventually had to close his school, and I quit the system because I never found anyone who could teach this way. It's a shame because I think Aikido has a lot offer, but the fighting aspect must be taken seriously for it to be of any use.
    I think this ties in with something that was mentioned earlier in the thread, which is the importance of having some proficiency in a base MA style that aikido 'builds off of' (some folks would argue this one)...somebody coming straight into aikido with no other background, in many cases, isn't going to be taught effective attacks in the first place, which makes the whole shebang unrealistic (IMHO).
  9. hungryjoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 9:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: judo hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I had, many years back, the opportunity to practice knife entry defense with some relatively high level former FMA trained akidoka.

    These classes separated the 'wheat from the chafe' type technique methodology. While a given move may work in an ideal setting, defense against a Sharpe told the tale.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	sharpie.jpg 
Views:	24 
Size:	8.9 KB 
ID:	15457

    disclaimer

    I am a lowly shodan in aikido.
  10. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 10:15pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    I had, many years back, the opportunity to practice knife entry defense with some relatively high level former FMA trained akidoka.

    These classes separated the 'wheat from the chafe' type technique methodology. While a given move may work in an ideal setting, defense against a Sharpe told the tale.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	sharpie.jpg 
Views:	24 
Size:	8.9 KB 
ID:	15457

    disclaimer

    I am a lowly shodan in aikido.
    Coincidentally, we also trained some FMA...the 2 styles at my school are aikido and modern arnis, so we crossed over a bit...lot of similarities with some of the locking techniques, actually...that and the weapons work was helpful...
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