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  1. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
    Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs's Avatar

    fist first Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2013 8:33am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeplin View Post
    Hi everyone!
    Long time lurker, first time poster, and all that.

    I want to ask a question/ask for suggestions.
    Whenever Aikido is brought up (though more for some styles than others, but still), it eventually comes down to primarily one point: Aikido does not have "alive" training.

    So my question is: how would you go about implementing this?
    Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not gonna go all "it's too dangerous! People WILL die!" on you here. But I do see some issues with alive training in Aikido, which is why I'm asking for suggestions on how to work around those.

    The first problem is you can't really wear thick gloves. Not only would it become increasingly difficult with gloves to use some techniques, but they would also become increasingly more difficult to apply. Since Aikido places a lot of weight on wrist locks, and joint manipulation centred around the wrist, how would you go about fixing this?
    Of course, you could do it without gloves, but I'm not sure everyone would be happy about being punched in the face without gloves on - and without punching in the face, the point of alive training goes out the window a bit.

    I also specifically mention the punching, as my Dojo does include Atemi in almost everything it does.

    The second problem is throws centred, again, around wrist locks. For me, I'm a graphic designer, the mobility of my wrists are pretty important to my job. I can deal with getting a bruised arm, or black eye, but I can't deal with a sprained wrist. The locks themselves could, of course, just be applied in the same way you do with BJJ - the guy taps out before **** gets serious. But what about the throws? You can't really go easy on a throw - if you do, the guy doesn't get thrown. You can't "build up the pressure", so to speak - it's throw or not throw. And I just personally see that as a bit of a problem, when a full powerful throw, powered by a wrist lock, could have some serious joint-problems.

    Again, I just want to make it clear that this is not a "it's too deadly" thread. Like any other MA, if there are techniques that could lead to such serious injury (like eye gouging or throat attacks in other MA's), you simply don't use them while sparring.
    But the two issues above leave me wondering if you could properly implement alive training in Aikido, without at the same time having issues with protective gear, and the possibility of serious joint injury.
    I also personally take as large a step as humanly possible, away from any sort of "Ki" Aikido.

    Last, no, I don't have tons of MA experience. I got 3rd kyu in Shotokan Karate when I was quite young, but haven't trained for a decade. I've done a tiny bit of Jujutsu, and a tiny bit of Judo. I recently, after much pondering, started Yoshinkan Aikido. I have no dreams of becoming a deadly killing machine, or even bothering with competing in anything.

    Just earnestly asking for advice from more experienced MA's.
    Hello Zeplin,

    Omega gave you the correct answer: first train Judo, SAMBO or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu before you start with Aikido.
    Yoshinkan Aikido is a very good style even without the alive sparring of Shodokan Aikido.

    Why Judo or derivative arts:
    According to one theory

    Before Ueshiba started to train with Takeda of the Daito-Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu, he trained in Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu.
    Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu and Kito Ryu are the two Ryu that formed the core of Jigoro Kano's Judo...
    So Ueshiba had a good fighting base before starting Aikido and he also studied Judo in 1911.
    When Ueshiba started to teach first Aiki Ju Jutsu and later on Aikido, it was required that his students already knew some form of Ju Jutsu, Judo and/or Karate.
    Because of that he didn't need to have randori in his teachings, all of his early students had experience with randori through their previous training.

    He only taught the things (Aikido) that would be a superset to another Japanese Martial Art.
    Unfortunate, through the years the standard of having students with an already existing background in Martial Arts/Combat sports was dropped.

    Aikido techniques work, but they can only be used in a very minority of situations that happen in a fight and only if you have trained in a style that can be used as a delivery system for those techniques (Judo and derivatives come to mind).
    For the most situations that can happen in a fight, Judo techniques are more than enough to get the job done.

    There's a lot of information on this site and others to describe this point of view and in more details.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  2. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2013 10:35am

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    By the way, for the record, you don't throw somebody with a wristlock; they throw themselves.
  3. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2013 10:54am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    By the way, for the record, you don't throw somebody with a wristlock; they throw themselves.
    Yes, otherwise the joint breaks/tears. All that leverage on a small joint...won't hold your own bodyweight let alone bent the wrong way...
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. traversnz is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2013 6:22pm


     Style: Judo, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    By the way, for the record, you don't throw somebody with a wristlock; they throw themselves.
    QFT.
    Take it further - there are no throws in aikido. All "throws" are a result of ukemi.
    That's why Omega (and others) said go and do judo or any other honest "combat sport" - no bullshit involved.
    True randori can never happen in aikido - there's always one person assuming the nage role and the other the uke role. Hell, when aikidoka watch a judo/boxing match, they talk about how the competitors change their roles.
    Here's the catch - aikido is only deadly if you know what deadly is. You won't learn that just training aikido because most practicioners aren't honest with themselves about their skill level, what they are doing, or the reasons they are doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    By the way, for the record, you don't throw somebody with a wristlock; they throw themselves.
    QFT.
    Take it further - there are no throws in aikido. All "throws" are a result of ukemi.
    That's why Omega (and others) said go and do judo or any other honest "combat sport" - no bullshit involved.
    True randori can never happen in aikido - there's always one person assuming the nage role and the other the uke role. Hell, when aikidoka watch a judo/boxing match, they talk about how the competitors change their roles.
    Here's the catch - aikido is only deadly if you know what deadly is. You won't learn that just training aikido because most practicioners aren't honest with themselves about their skill level, what they are doing, or the reasons they are doing it.
  5. Mister is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2013 6:54pm


     Style: Injured

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by traversnz View Post
    QFT.
    Take it further - there are no throws in aikido. All "throws" are a result of ukemi.
    Nope.

    Sumi Otoshi is indeed a throw, and could be applied to a non-cooperative opponent.

    Sokumen Iriminage, Shomen-ate, and a few others as well.



    Still looks like bad Judo, though.
  6. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2013 7:00pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister View Post
    Nope.

    Sumi Otoshi is indeed a throw, and could be applied to a non-cooperative opponent.

    Sokumen Iriminage, Shomen-ate, and a few others as well.



    Still looks like bad Judo, though.
    Different Sumi Otoshi than Judo, though. The form of that throw (Sukui Nage) is common in many forms of koryu jujutsu.

    Aikido has koshi waza/nage as well.

    It's not all unuseable for sure. My primary judo instructor got a lot of insight into judo technique and tai sabaki from doing aikido and working on it with his brother, who was/is an aikido yudansha.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/01/2013 7:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I don't think you really understand what Aikido is. Go back and do Judo and BJJ.
    This.
  8. svt2026 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2013 9:21am


     Style: hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    Welcome, Zeplin. Why don't you go introduce yourself in Newbietown and read the stickies there?

    There is a style of aikido that attempts to create an alive context for technique -- Shodokan aikido. They have a kind of knife randori that looks like this:

    What I think becomes evident in Shodokan randori is that a lot of aikido's complex wrist locks are virtually impossible to apply live, at least against the kind of opponents you're likely to see today. These locks were orginally invented by swordsmen for use against other swordsmen; maybe it's easier to catch someone up in this kind of lock who is swinging a heavy sword and wearing heavy armor, but against a guy in normal clothes stabbing with a knife or throwing a punch, you're probably not going to get him into a nikkyo or a shihonage.
    This appears to me the attacker is holding a knife and the other person is suppose to defend as an actual attack. Am I correct in this... If I am the defender is taking a lot of damage from an edged weapon and his whole strategy is working against him.
  9. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 4:00pm


     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by svt2026 View Post
    This appears to me the attacker is holding a knife and the other person is suppose to defend as an actual attack. Am I correct in this... If I am the defender is taking a lot of damage from an edged weapon and his whole strategy is working against him.
    I have always thought this while watching Shodokan randori. I don't know the rules very well, so I don't know what counts as a hit with the knife.

    Sent from my SPH-D710 using Bullshido - No BS MMA mobile app
  10. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 4:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tanto randori rules:
    1. Maintain straight bearing;
    2. Move forward;
    3. Stretch the striking arm fully;
    4. Maintain balance during the attack as well as after it;
    5. Attack only the valid zone:
    - torso between the waist and the line linking the armpits,
    including the back and side parts + arms pressed to the body
    attheaforementionedlevel;
    -armpitsareunattackable.
    6. Not leave the «back» leg too far and raise your heel only a little;
    7. End your attack in a stable position.

    So basically, only a fully extended lunge punch to the body is allowed, and, well, you see they still get stabbed all the time trying to aikido the thrust. I reckon they'd fare a lot less well if the other guy was allowed to wield the knife however he wanted. I credit them for trying though, which is less than a lot of aikidoka do.
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