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  1. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 6:10pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To the OP:

    Okay, here's the thing...a lot of the aikido techniques just aren't going to work in most real sparring conditions unless it's against another aikidoka who is trying to do the same thing, or you are VERY good. If someone has had even just a few months of boxing training you will not be catching their wrists.

    That being said, in my life I've been able to apply some of the principles of aikido in very "alive" situations. I do not mean street fights...for many years I was a crisis services clinician for the mental health system of a major city, and I worked the overnight shift for much of that time. As the biggest and strongest person on my shift (which ain't saying much) I had to take the lead whenever we were moving to a physical restraint for somebody in our care.

    By the nature of our profession, we could not hit, throw (much), use pain compliance locks, or in any other way cause injury. This is against full grown adults who might be drunk, high, psychotic, delusional, etc. In this context, the aiki mindset really made sense, and I was often able to blend "enough" with their movements to keep myself or my patient from being injured while we worked the restraining techniques we were allowed to use.

    Any ways, there are pieces there that can have application (IMHO), and some of the basics are just good to know over all (break falls, how to move with an opponent, even the idea of the more circular kinds of movement). Is this what you want to be studying so you can tear up the clubs each weekend? Hell no! Just try to get the big picture behind some of the lessons, take the individual techniques for what they are (lots of input on that to be found on this board), and you will find benefit.

    Or you could just train Judo.


    (Sorry this was long and rambling, but I thought it might be good for a beginning aikido student to hear)
    Last edited by Keslet; 9/30/2013 6:18pm at .
  2. Bayonet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 6:11pm


     Style: Judo

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am going to be a shameless nut-rider here and just suggest that the OP stop trying to make Aikido more alive and simply train Judo or the Beej.

    Honestly, before I got into Judo, I always thought that Aikido was just some kinda esoteric way for old judokas to keep their skills up after they get tired of always crashing into the mats. Always thought they were the same art, only seperated by seniority and hip brittleness...

    Perhaps that's the way it should be. Get used to hard randori with Judo while you're young and unbreakable (lol) and then bring that experience to Aikido once you get older. Like those old boxers you see at the gym; they had their rough-and-tumble years in the ring, but now they just shadow box to keep the rust off. It's probably easier and safer practicing those locks/throws when you have years of experience behind you, anyway.

    Also, I would not want to be seen in those magic pants unless I was ALREADY a pretty good fighter. Knowmsayin, brah?
  3. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 6:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    Is it a fact that aikido was created for specific use against an armed attacker? I've heard this theory thrown around but I have some questions. I don't read up on much aikido but I thought it came about relatively recently well after the armored samurai had become obselete by Ueshebia (spelling?) as a philosophy for self defense. It is my understanding that founder of aikido and most of it's first generation were already experienced martial artists who had the foundation and ability to adapt their knowledge to a specific set of principles.

    if i'm on the right path with my thinking here aikido would best be used by experienced grapplers and martial artists who already know how to manipulate a persons center of gravity.
    I think it was Rock Ape who addressed this here on Bullshido at one point. That is, the issue of aikido techniques being designed to work (the wrist techniques specifically) when the opponent is holding a weapon. You can try a search, of course.

    Just imagine you are trying to hold onto your sword...that might make you a bit more vulnerable to being wristlocked and thrown. You really don't want to give up the weapon. On the other hand, barehanded, you are free to move your wrists/arms/body in many different ways.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 6:34pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Aikidio wrist locks (te kubi waza in Judo) are not any different from the rest of the japanese ju jutsu wrist locks. Or catch wrestling wrist locks, or whatever _ style of martial art/combat sport/wrestling wrist "locks".

    So please stop talking about "aikido wrist locks". Argh. It's like calling juji gatame a "judo arm lock/arm bar whatever".

    If I do Kote Gaeshi in the context of the Goshin Jutsu (no kata) of Judo, it's not a "judo wrist lock", or an "aikido wrist lock" (although Tomiki Sensei, founder of Tomiki Ryu Aikido, had a large hand in developing the Goshin Jutsu (no kata) of Judo). It's just Kote Gaeshi or whatever it is called in the other disciplines that use the "wrist reversal" principle.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 7:39pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Aikidio wrist locks (te kubi waza in Judo) are not any different from the rest of the japanese ju jutsu wrist locks. Or catch wrestling wrist locks, or whatever _ style of martial art/combat sport/wrestling wrist "locks".

    So please stop talking about "aikido wrist locks". Argh. It's like calling juji gatame a "judo arm lock/arm bar whatever".

    If I do Kote Gaeshi in the context of the Goshin Jutsu (no kata) of Judo, it's not a "judo wrist lock", or an "aikido wrist lock" (although Tomiki Sensei, founder of Tomiki Ryu Aikido, had a large hand in developing the Goshin Jutsu (no kata) of Judo). It's just Kote Gaeshi or whatever it is called in the other disciplines that use the "wrist reversal" principle.
    Quoted for truth.
  6. OwlMatt is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 7:49pm


     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    That really is the root of my concearn. I think one would be hard pressed to find a video of a Judo white belt vs a green belt or a BJJ white belt vs a Purple belt where the difference in skill wouldn't be apperant. Given of course the white belts didn't have other applicable training ie a Sambo guy.
    Read Mister's post. The difference between the white belt and the black belt might only be one rank.
  7. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 8:43pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    Read Mister's post. The difference between the white belt and the black belt might only be one rank.
    Aye its true here is the orgs site
    http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/...n+Requirements
    I can only find Dan Grade requirements.
    Also in the video it looks like they only have white and black belts.
  8. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 9:37pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Aye its true here is the orgs site
    http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/...n+Requirements
    I can only find Dan Grade requirements.
    Also in the video it looks like they only have white and black belts.
    Where I trained aikido did throw in brown belts at 3rd kyu and above, in addition to white and black...

    Edit: We did get magic pants whenever the head instructors decided it was appropriate (they had criteria, but it had some subjectivity to it)...
  9. Nickosaurus is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2013 7:59am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The problem with bringing "Aliveness" to Aikido is for it to be worth anything it would have to be done by someone with a high level of competence in both Aikido and which ever "Alive" Style they were merging it with be it Judo, Sambo, Westling or BJJ. Otherwise it would just descend into poorly taught Judo

    It goes back to a problem which has probably been raised here before that schools only teaching dead patterns probably only have the ability and qualifications to teach dead pattens. Even if the instructors watched the early UFC and Matt Thornton and decided they needed to change they cannot simply become competent over night. The instructors would have to go out and find training and it would take years for them to reach a level where they could legitimately sell coaching in those skills.

    I was in a similar position to the OP but with Traditional Ju Jitsu, I was a brown belt and occasional instructor in a small-ish club by the time I left but I knew I wasn't in a position to change anything in the club so I left to find what I was looking for. I did both for a while until I was sure, might be worth a go
  10. OwlMatt is online now

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2013 8:14am


     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nickosaurus View Post
    The problem with bringing "Aliveness" to Aikido is for it to be worth anything it would have to be done by someone with a high level of competence in both Aikido and which ever "Alive" Style they were merging it with be it Judo, Sambo, Westling or BJJ. Otherwise it would just descend into poorly taught Judo.
    This is what Tomiki tried to do with Shodokan Aikido. He was a legitimate expert in both aikido and judo. The trouble is, as I and others have already said, that training aikido techniques live really only proves that aikido's complex wrist-locking doesn't work live -- which is why Shodokan randori often looks more like judo than aikido.
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