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  1. Zeplin is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 10:12am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Alive Training in Aikido - Suggestions?

    Hi everyone!
    Long time lurker, first time poster, and all that.

    I want to ask a question/ask for suggestions.
    Whenever Aikido is brought up (though more for some styles than others, but still), it eventually comes down to primarily one point: Aikido does not have "alive" training.

    So my question is: how would you go about implementing this?
    Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not gonna go all "it's too dangerous! People WILL die!" on you here. But I do see some issues with alive training in Aikido, which is why I'm asking for suggestions on how to work around those.

    The first problem is you can't really wear thick gloves. Not only would it become increasingly difficult with gloves to use some techniques, but they would also become increasingly more difficult to apply. Since Aikido places a lot of weight on wrist locks, and joint manipulation centred around the wrist, how would you go about fixing this?
    Of course, you could do it without gloves, but I'm not sure everyone would be happy about being punched in the face without gloves on - and without punching in the face, the point of alive training goes out the window a bit.

    I also specifically mention the punching, as my Dojo does include Atemi in almost everything it does.

    The second problem is throws centred, again, around wrist locks. For me, I'm a graphic designer, the mobility of my wrists are pretty important to my job. I can deal with getting a bruised arm, or black eye, but I can't deal with a sprained wrist. The locks themselves could, of course, just be applied in the same way you do with BJJ - the guy taps out before **** gets serious. But what about the throws? You can't really go easy on a throw - if you do, the guy doesn't get thrown. You can't "build up the pressure", so to speak - it's throw or not throw. And I just personally see that as a bit of a problem, when a full powerful throw, powered by a wrist lock, could have some serious joint-problems.

    Again, I just want to make it clear that this is not a "it's too deadly" thread. Like any other MA, if there are techniques that could lead to such serious injury (like eye gouging or throat attacks in other MA's), you simply don't use them while sparring.
    But the two issues above leave me wondering if you could properly implement alive training in Aikido, without at the same time having issues with protective gear, and the possibility of serious joint injury.
    I also personally take as large a step as humanly possible, away from any sort of "Ki" Aikido.

    Last, no, I don't have tons of MA experience. I got 3rd kyu in Shotokan Karate when I was quite young, but haven't trained for a decade. I've done a tiny bit of Jujutsu, and a tiny bit of Judo. I recently, after much pondering, started Yoshinkan Aikido. I have no dreams of becoming a deadly killing machine, or even bothering with competing in anything.

    Just earnestly asking for advice from more experienced MA's.
  2. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 11:45am

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think you really understand what Aikido is. Go back and do Judo and BJJ.
  3. Fuzzy is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 11:52am


     Style: DocePares/MMA(YawYan)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How long have you been doing Aikido?
  4. Zeplin is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 12:22pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I don't think you really understand what Aikido is. Go back and do Judo and BJJ.
    Wow... talk about an answer that's utterly unusable.
    I expected (and continue to expect) a lot of hate in this thread, just because of the rep Aikido has here. But this is just a reply you can't use for anything, it's not constructive, informational, or anything really. Heck, the last statement even makes me wonder if you bothered reading what I wrote, before replying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    How long have you been doing Aikido?
    Practicing Aikido, I'm very new (thought I made this clear in the OP, but clearly I didn't!). That said, due to my own interest in various martial arts, I've read up on it for about a year or two.

    My question isn't necessarily geared towards where my training is >right now< (no matter the martial art, I would probably be better off just getting the techniques down first), but was more of a general question, since this is what pops up in every single Aikido thread I've read here.
  5. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 12:25pm


     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Welcome, Zeplin. Why don't you go introduce yourself in Newbietown and read the stickies there?

    There is a style of aikido that attempts to create an alive context for technique -- Shodokan aikido. They have a kind of knife randori that looks like this:

    What I think becomes evident in Shodokan randori is that a lot of aikido's complex wrist locks are virtually impossible to apply live, at least against the kind of opponents you're likely to see today. These locks were orginally invented by swordsmen for use against other swordsmen; maybe it's easier to catch someone up in this kind of lock who is swinging a heavy sword and wearing heavy armor, but against a guy in normal clothes stabbing with a knife or throwing a punch, you're probably not going to get him into a nikkyo or a shihonage.
  6. Zeplin is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 12:42pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    Welcome, Zeplin. Why don't you go introduce yourself in Newbietown and read the stickies there?

    There is a style of aikido that attempts to create an alive context for technique -- Shodokan aikido. They have a kind of knife randori that looks like this:

    ///snip///can'tpostlinksyet

    What I think becomes evident in Shodokan randori is that a lot of aikido's complex wrist locks are virtually impossible to apply live, at least against the kind of opponents you're likely to see today. These locks were orginally invented by swordsmen for use against other swordsmen; maybe it's easier to catch someone up in this kind of lock who is swinging a heavy sword and wearing heavy armor, but against a guy in normal clothes stabbing with a knife or throwing a punch, you're probably not going to get him into a nikkyo or a shihonage.
    I'll be sure to head on over there and do that!

    I know about Shodokan - I would have easily chosen that as my preferred style, but there, to my knowledge, doesn't exist a single Shodokan dojo in Denmark, let alone near me.

    I agree completely that many of the bigger and fancier moves of Aikido are unrealistic, at least if you try to apply them as you do when drilling practice. Gozo Shioda, the founder of Yoshinkan, made it quite clear that the moves were not intended to be executed like they are practised - the practice is to show the fundamentals behind the techniques, not meant as "do it exactly this way". Sadly, that seems to be completely ignored in most places these days.

    I don't live in a dangerous place. The two countries I spend the most time living/working in, is Denmark and Japan, places known for their low violent crime rate. I don't train, nor need to, or want to, for going up against highly skilled guys, for competitions, or anything overly serious. I'm having fun with what I'm doing, and simply want to get the best out it that >I can<. Hence just asking for ideas and suggestions for "alive" sparring, or something closer to it, in Aikido.
  7. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 12:45pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I hate to be this asshole, but the question is moot. Unless you are in a position to actually make changes to the culture of your dojo.

    If you want aliveness find a martial art/dojo who have it built in. When u do see Akido done with aliveness it ends up looking like sloppy inefective judo.
  8. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 1:12pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I don't think you really understand what Aikido is. Go back and do Judo and BJJ.
    This is the most succinct reason I've ever seen given the OP's question.

    To the OP, the wrist locks in aikido are based on the attacker holding a weapon. Basically, a sword/blade of some sort, even more specifically, a Japanese sword/tanto of some sort. Hence, they do not work so well against a resisting opponent who is unarmed.

    Of course, if your desires are in line with the intent of aikido, then go for it.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. Krijgsman is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 1:29pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How do you go alive? Practice your techniques against resisting opponents who are trying to do the same thing back to you.

    But someone might get hurt! Yes. That is very possible, and in fact probably. But you can still practice without getting hurt. Part of it is a willingness to recognize when someone has performed a technique correctly and effectively and go with it (at least when it comes to grappling) and either work an escape or something or let them perform the technique and take your fall/tap. Don't resist to the point of getting hurt.

    Other people have pointed out why Aikido isn't a great candidate for aliveness, but we have played with wrist locks and stuff at my Judo dojo occasionally in randori. 90% of the time desperately working for a wrist lock or wrist lock throw just gets you thrown or locked up with something that is less complicated and more "judo" like.
  10. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 2:04pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeplin View Post
    Wow... talk about an answer that's utterly unusable.
    I expected (and continue to expect) a lot of hate in this thread, just because of the rep Aikido has here. But this is just a reply you can't use for anything, it's not constructive, informational, or anything really. Heck, the last statement even makes me wonder if you bothered reading what I wrote, before replying.
    First of all, I gave you all the information you need. It is very useful. If you go back to Judo or BJJ you'll discover what Aikido really is. I'm not one to go into a full lecture. If you want to know why I say it then simply ask.

    You have a vision of what Aikido is. I believe it's incorrect. Why don't you enlighten me if I'm wrong.
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