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  1. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 5:18pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    So, what is the working hypothesis for the physics of Juji Gatame? What experiments are planned to test that hypothesis? Maybe multiple working hypotheses?

    Since we are being all scientific and everything...
    Okay , so I get 10 subjects, and a decibel meter, then I try different variations of the technique until all 10 arms are broken, with the loudest screams indicating the most effective approach...SCIENCE!
  2. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 5:21pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Okay , so I get 10 subjects, and a decibel meter, then I try different variations of the technique until all 10 arms are broken, with the loudest screams indicating the most effective approach...SCIENCE!
    Don't forget to load them up with pressure sensors
  3. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 5:26pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Don't forget to load them up with pressure sensors
    And be sure to add in representatives ("experts") of different "arts" who are having a pissing contest over which way of doing Juji Gatame is the best.

    That kinda sounds like some of the science I saw in grad school and afterwards in the oil industry come to think of it!
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 5:30pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The exact physics as a tool towards understanding how/when to apply a technique most effectively is rendered mostly moot if the technique is understood by the instructor, and the instructor has effective means to facilitate the student to learn the technique and then the skill of how to apply it effectively under realistic conditions.

    An understanding of the exact type of lever may or may not help out, depending on the instructor and the student. A beginner doesn't need to know that "x" uses a Type 2 lever, other than incidentally...instruct/teach it correctly, and it won't matter at all.

    Unless you are a physics major, maybe, LOL !

    It's an interesting subject no doubt, and one I think that might be of more use to instructors in figuring out more/better ways to teach.

    Carry on, though, it's definitely an interesting subject !
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 5:42pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Don't forget to load them up with pressure sensors
    Oh yeah! Big ones that turn red so I'll know when SCIENCE happens!
  6. Dr_Awesome is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 6:08pm


     Style: Hapkido

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    You don't need to take the science out of it to reach your goal, you just need to make the science accessible. You say your background as a physicist really helped you...I'm willing to bet it's not because you oversimplified or avoided scientific method. If you want others to share that benefit then find a way to communicate it in language they'll understand.
    This is very well put.

    I definitely don't want to take the science out of it, but I don't want to get caught in the trap where you use science to describe something in detail to the benefit of no one either.

    I think it comes down to language and accessibility. And possibly time spent on a topic. This is really helpful discussion for me, thanks.
  7. Dr_Awesome is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 6:11pm


     Style: Hapkido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    So, what is the working hypothesis for the physics of Juji Gatame? What experiments are planned to test that hypothesis? Maybe multiple working hypotheses?

    Since we are being all scientific and everything...
    I'd actually be curious to see how much different muscle groups (back, legs, etc) contribute to the force applied on either side of the elbow.
  8. Dr_Awesome is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 6:32pm


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    The exact physics as a tool towards understanding how/when to apply a technique most effectively is rendered mostly moot if the technique is understood by the instructor, and the instructor has effective means to facilitate the student to learn the technique and then the skill of how to apply it effectively under realistic conditions.

    An understanding of the exact type of lever may or may not help out, depending on the instructor and the student. A beginner doesn't need to know that "x" uses a Type 2 lever, other than incidentally...instruct/teach it correctly, and it won't matter at all.

    Unless you are a physics major, maybe, LOL !

    It's an interesting subject no doubt, and one I think that might be of more use to instructors in figuring out more/better ways to teach.

    Carry on, though, it's definitely an interesting subject !
    Yes! This is exactly what I was getting at. Detailed scientific descriptions like lever classes just aren't helpful to someone on the mat... but building an understanding that you can greatly increase the force you apply by increasing your distance from the pivot, means if you end up in a situation where you are trying to do juji gatame, but somehow ended up holding onto his arm in the middle of the forearm instead of the wrist, you will know it's probably a better idea to shift your grip than to try to make up for it with more force...
    Last edited by Dr_Awesome; 10/02/2013 6:35pm at .
  9. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 6:43pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    I'd actually be curious to see how much different muscle groups (back, legs, etc) contribute to the force applied on either side of the elbow.
    Not to subject myself to ridicule, but one of the shows did something like this once...they had Randy Couture (if I'm remembering correctly) secure a front headlock, then he held it for an extended period while they monitored muscle activity...I don't recall the finding (maybe something about using muscle groups in series rather than all at once???)...anyways, you're statement reminded me of it...
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