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  1. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 2:20am


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    Yup.

    There's a lot of prior work in both biomechanics and kinesiology, but I originally had no intention to take techniques and break them down scientifically. What I was shooting for was a little more "how can I make levers and leverage work for me in a fight" as an accessible and conceptual piece for fighters who don't normally deal with equations (I even avoided using the word "fulcrum" throughout the piece).

    But now that the conversation really has become more of a breakdown of specific techniques and examples (and really this is one of my favorite threads so far) I feel like I should shut my face and get reading.

    BRB
    Really? I thought you stated right off asking for examples of techniques to possibly illustrate levers, something about examining quantitatively or some such, even mentioned "Fight Science", all within the first few posts? If you weren't wanting to "take techniques and break them down scientifically", but instead wanted to learn more about making leverage work for you personally in a fight, then ChenPengFi is right...more training, less talking...
  2. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 4:32am

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    ...doing the "Fight Science" thing with correct scientific method.

    Hahahahahaaaa!!!!
  3. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 5:56am


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Hahahahahaaaa!!!!
    Okay, okay...but it's at least POSSIBLE, if not likely. After all, if we can land a wee little robot on Mars we should be able to figure out the physics of an armbar...
  4. Dr_Awesome is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 10:37am


     Style: Hapkido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Really? I thought you stated right off asking for examples of techniques to possibly illustrate levers, something about examining quantitatively or some such, even mentioned "Fight Science", all within the first few posts? If you weren't wanting to "take techniques and break them down scientifically", but instead wanted to learn more about making leverage work for you personally in a fight, then ChenPengFi is right...more training, less talking...
    Really... Although I did ask for examples starting from post 1 because I was hoping to get some good ideas for techniques to possibly break down a little further in depth in the future... but I was hoping for something so simple I could keep it on the same level as that article.

    CPF was kind enough to squash most of those examples because they were just too complicated to treat with that level of simplicity. I don't want to get too technical with it, but I absolutely don't want to misrepresent a technique for the sake of simplicity either.

    I like to think of myself as a fighter first, and a physicist second, and my training as a physicist has helped me immensely to pick up martial arts quickly and apply techniques effectively in live training/sparring. Training and experience are the key to success, but my background really helped me get much more out of every minute I spent training. I would really like to find a way to share that advantage with other fighters. I think the blog is a good start, but I admit I'm still working on finding the right voice, medium, etc.

    On that topic, I feel like most of the fight "science" out there comes from one of two places that I hate:
    1) Bad science
    2) Good science that just ends up being an enumeration and mathematical description of what fighters do

    Number 1 is bad for obvious reasons
    Number 2 I feel isn't helpful. I remember after searching for a long time for other physicist/fighters, I found an older physicist/karateka who wrote a book on karate years ago and I got very excited about it. When I dug into it, I found that even though he broke everything down in terms of math and angles, it was still just a description of the techniques, as if someone had done a google translate on the descriptions from english to math. All he had done was take a piece of knowledge and make it less accessible. While it might be an interesting problem to tackle, I find this frustrating because I don't think it helps anyone to be a better fighter.

    So I am trying to create a third category:
    3)Good science that is accessible to most anyone and helps you to get more out of the time you spend training.

    ...and feedback on Bullshido helps a lot.
  5. Dr_Awesome is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 10:48am


     Style: Hapkido

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Okay, okay...but it's at least POSSIBLE, if not likely. After all, if we can land a wee little robot on Mars we should be able to figure out the physics of an armbar...
    Yea, it's definitely possible. I think the problem is the complexities mean you'd have to run the whole thing as a simulation, and that is a lot of coding, especially when you consider all the possible scenarios and variables involved... which brings us to CPFs point of "why not spend that time on the mat?"
  6. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 1:35pm

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    Yea, it's definitely possible. I think the problem is the complexities mean you'd have to run the whole thing as a simulation, and that is a lot of coding, especially when you consider all the possible scenarios and variables involved... which brings us to CPFs point of "why not spend that time on the mat?"
    It's more that when you're working with a good coach, all of these things are already taught in context.
    I know, because my coach showed me, that grabbing a little lower on the leg and getting a little higher in the armpit with my knee, makes a HUGE difference when going for a 'flower sweep' for example.

    Discussing simple concepts in lay terms, like "increasing your leverage by 10% is like being 10% "stronger" has some value, but it all gets lost in the miasma of 'dihedral triangles' and 'AOA' bullshit eventually.

    Thus my first post in this thread.
  7. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 3:13pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post

    So I am trying to create a third category:
    3)Good science that is accessible to most anyone and helps you to get more out of the time you spend .
    Okay, contrast that with;
    "I originally had no intention to take techniques and break them down scientifically"

    So you're going to have "good science" that isn't "scientific"? Or is being "scientific" the same thing as inaccessible? Like it has to be so jargoned up as to be incomprehensible to anyone but a physicist?

    I'm sure this can be parsed down to ridiculousness, but I'm not sure why you made such a strong distinction about avoiding "scientific" approaches in a thread that's all about the science of MA. You don't need to take the science out of it to reach your goal, you just need to make the science accessible. You say your background as a physicist really helped you...I'm willing to bet it's not because you oversimplified or avoided scientific method. If you want others to share that benefit then find a way to communicate it in language they'll understand.
  8. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 3:30pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    It's more that when you're working with a good coach, all of these things are already taught in context.
    I know, because my coach showed me, that grabbing a little lower on the leg and getting a little higher in the armpit with my knee, makes a HUGE difference when going for a 'flower sweep' for example.

    Discussing simple concepts in lay terms, like "increasing your leverage by 10% is like being 10% "stronger" has some value, but it all gets lost in the miasma of 'dihedral triangles' and 'AOA' bullshit eventually.

    Thus my first post in this thread.
    I had to chuckle, I was about to basically make the same comment.

    The judo stuff I scratched the surface. You have to use techniques as examples; you have to explain what a particular lever is somehow, then give a concrete example using a technique that applies the lever/principle, whatever.

    A big problem is that the human body is not a simple rigid body. So on something simple like Juji Gatame (relatively simple), it is still fairly complex. For throws, well, it gets complicated fast...
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 3:33pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, what is the working hypothesis for the physics of Juji Gatame? What experiments are planned to test that hypothesis? Maybe multiple working hypotheses?

    Since we are being all scientific and everything...
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 5:15pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    So, what is the working hypothesis for the physics of Juji Gatame? What experiments are planned to test that hypothesis? Maybe multiple working hypotheses?

    Since we are being all scientific and everything...
    I dunno, I'm not the physicist...but I was interested in finding out. This is the hook that caught me at first with shows like "Fight Science", but the science was always so sloppy (whether the experiments themselves or the conclusions they thought their data supported)...with this thread I thought we were having an interesting discussion about an aspect of physical science and MA...I still think that can be a valid and interesting discussion, or it can be garbage...all depends on how it's executed...
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