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  1. Dr_Awesome is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 10:13am


     Style: Hapkido

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Krijgsman View Post
    I am no physicist...
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    I'm no physical scientist either...
    Ha. As a physicist, I have nothing to add, because you guys have a handle on the whole thing. This is actually a great discussion with some good examples.
  2. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 12:34pm

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    yea... I was thinking about the standing arm bar like in judo:



    The hapkido throws and such I left out, because to your point, there is too much going on there besides just one lever.
    Same things are going on in that one, really.

    He starts it like a class III lever attacking the elbow but switches to showing it in the torquing fashion; so back to the Judo shoulder vs elbow attack thing:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98538

    Thus the earlier disagreement.
    I think juji-gatame is way simpler conceptually and:


    Quote Originally Posted by Krijgsman View Post
    I am no physicist, so someone who is can make fun of me, but isn't the fact that the whole body is the load to be moved the whole point of a joint lock? You use force on one end of the lever to attempt to move the whole body (I am thinking of a juji gatame or ude garame here) and create a fulcrum on/near the point most likely to fail (the joint). The force needed to move the whole body is greater than the force capacity of the joint at the fulcrum and the joint fails instead of the lever moving the load.
    Nope, juji for example is a class III, resistance/load and the fulcrum are at opposite ends of the lever, and the effort and movement comes from the hips, basically.
  3. Krijgsman is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 1:19pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Nope, juji for example is a class III, resistance/load and the fulcrum are at opposite ends of the lever, and the effort and movement comes from the hips, basically.
    Hmm. How I am picturing it, and how it was taught to me in Judo makes it as little a hip movement as possible unless you need that last little bit to finish it. More about de-mobalizing the shoulder with leg/knee squeeze and pulling down with the upper body. But looking at a diagram of a class 3 lever it would certainly be the case if you got to the hip arch stage to finish it. So I got the fulcrum wrong in that case.
  4. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 1:27pm

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Krijgsman View Post
    Hmm. How I am picturing it, and how it was taught to me in Judo makes it as little a hip movement as possible unless you need that last little bit to finish it. More about de-mobalizing the shoulder with leg/knee squeeze and pulling down with the upper body. But looking at a diagram of a class 3 lever it would certainly be the case if you got to the hip arch stage to finish it. So I got the fulcrum wrong in that case.

    Thus the "basically".
    Simple machines are inadequate to describe human kinetics, that's all.
  5. Krijgsman is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 1:31pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Thus the "basically".
    Simple machines are inadequate to describe human kinetics, that's all.
    Touche' batman.
  6. Dr_Awesome is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 2:20pm


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Same things are going on in that one, really.

    He starts it like a class III lever attacking the elbow but switches to showing it in the torquing fashion; so back to the Judo shoulder vs elbow attack thing:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98538

    Thus the earlier disagreement.
    I think juji-gatame is way simpler conceptually and:


    Nope, juji for example is a class III, resistance/load and the fulcrum are at opposite ends of the lever, and the effort and movement comes from the hips, basically.
    Thanks for the link on that thread. That was a good read, and if some adjustments in the technique can apply the stress to the shoulder rather than the elbow, it is too complicated to use as an illustrative example. I think I'll stick to juji-gatame.
  7. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 4:51pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Krijgsman View Post
    Hmm. How I am picturing it, and how it was taught to me in Judo makes it as little a hip movement as possible unless you need that last little bit to finish it. More about de-mobalizing the shoulder with leg/knee squeeze and pulling down with the upper body. But looking at a diagram of a class 3 lever it would certainly be the case if you got to the hip arch stage to finish it. So I got the fulcrum wrong in that case.

    Okay, this is not my area of expertise...clearly you guys know much more about the concepts and specific vocabulary than I do. I'm trying to picture this example, and I'm getting confused on what distinguishes one way of looking at it from another (I'm trying to understand the class 3 lever and I'm not sure I've got it). If folks don't mind my asking for some clarification I would appreciate it...

    We're basically talking about an arm bar, correct? There have been a few discussed, but I think this is what Krijgsnan was referring to...so when I picture that technique I think of the arm as the lever (of course), load is being applied at the wrist, load is also being applied at the shoulder (body weight, immobilizing the shoulder/body, etc.), and a fulcrum is being created by the body arch/hips...more load is applied/available at both ends of the lever, so it breaks over the fulcrum or at the joint (wherever the lever fails)...

    ChenPengFi has corrected us in that this technique is really an application of a class 3 lever, where the fulcrum is up by the shoulder, and force is being applied upward at the hips/arch and downwards at the wrist (do I have that right?)...looking at a diagram of such a lever it makes sense, but it seems to me like the point at the shoulder is doing more than being the fulcrum, it's anchored (I'm sorry I don't know the correct term, but hopefully that's understandable). A counter for this is to stack yourself up so you can move the shoulder forward and bend the arm, correct? While Tori keeps trying to straighten and hyperextend the arm, which seems to imply that the elbow is the fulcrum...

    I'm probably not explaining myself well...I apologize if I'm using terms incorrectly, I'm just trying to get the picture. In my head, and the class 3 lever piece is confusing me...
  8. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 5:18pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    We're basically talking about an arm bar, correct? There have been a few discussed, but I think this is what Krijgsnan was referring to...so when I picture that technique I think of the arm as the lever (of course), load is being applied at the wrist, load is also being applied at the shoulder (body weight, immobilizing the shoulder/body, etc.), and a fulcrum is being created by the body arch/hips...more load is applied/available at both ends of the lever, so it breaks over the fulcrum or at the joint (wherever the lever fails)...
    IIRC, the 2 "loads" of a lever are input and output force, or effort and resistance. So, you wouldn't say that load is applied to the wrist and the shoulder since that's equating 2 dissimilar things. You'd call one the effort and the other the resistance. I believe what you're saying here is that force applied to the distal end of the arm is the effort and their bodyweight is the resistance.
  9. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 5:25pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    IIRC, the 2 "loads" of a lever are input and output force, or effort and resistance. So, you wouldn't say that load is applied to the wrist and the shoulder since that's equating 2 dissimilar things. You'd call one the effort and the other the resistance. I believe what you're saying here is that force applied to the distal end of the arm is the effort and their bodyweight is the resistance.

    Yeah, I knew I was messing up the terms...thank you for the correction, and I think that is what I'm trying to say...I'm just getting confused when I try to reconceptualize the mechanics of this technique into what a class 3 lever appears to be (from the diagram I found...it helps me to see a visual with this kind of stuff).
  10. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 7:10pm

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    Thanks for the link on that thread. That was a good read, and if some adjustments in the technique can apply the stress to the shoulder rather than the elbow, it is too complicated to use as an illustrative example. I think I'll stick to juji-gatame.

    The point i'm trying to make is you're bound to need to oversimplify, making the whole exercise somewhat questionable.
    Juji-gatame is just as problematic as Krijgsman's post illustrates, as does JudokaUK's article on straightening the arm:

    http://thedifficultway.blogspot.com/...tame-from.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    I'm just getting confused when I try to reconceptualize the mechanics of this technique into what a class 3 lever appears to be (from the diagram I found...it helps me to see a visual with this kind of stuff).
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