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  1. #21

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Any armlock is a lever; but probably not in the sense people think.

    In a straight elbow lock, the fulcrum is my hand that is holding his elbow; the force is applied by my other hand; and the load to be moved(destroyed) is the _structure of the elbow joint_.

    There is NO WAY his body is the load to be moved.

  2. #22
    ChenPengFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    yea, I like the standing armbar idea because it's relatively clean (not a whole lot of other things going on besides the leverage).
    I disagree.

  3. #23
    ChenPengFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMC View Post
    There is NO WAY his body is the load to be moved.
    OP does Hapkido, i've seen quite a bit of that in there (and Aikido etc.).
    This one is hand and wrist, but same idea.



    You're also talking about the lever failing, that isn't the same as the description of the force and structures vis a vis levers.

  4. #24
    Permalost's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DMC View Post
    Any armlock is a lever; but probably not in the sense people think.
    In what sense, then?

    In a straight elbow lock, the fulcrum is my hand that is holding his elbow; the force is applied by my other hand; and the load to be moved(destroyed) is the _structure of the elbow joint_.
    -in your example above, are you saying that the fulcrum and load to be moved are the same (the elbow)? What type of lever is that?

    -in a more general sense, a straight elbow lock may use a number of different fulcrums and force appliers, not just the hands (the armpit, forearm, pelvis, knee, shoulder, etc)

    There is NO WAY his body is the load to be moved.
    Couldn't the body be the load to be moved, with the understanding that damage to the elbow/lever will begin to happen before there is enough force to move the whole load? This is the sort of leverage you use in landscaping to break tree limbs in the crotches of other trees.

  5. #25

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DMC View Post
    Any armlock is a lever; but probably not in the sense people think.

    In a straight elbow lock, the fulcrum is my hand that is holding his elbow; the force is applied by my other hand; and the load to be moved(destroyed) is the _structure of the elbow joint_.

    There is NO WAY his body is the load to be moved.
    I am no physicist, so someone who is can make fun of me, but isn't the fact that the whole body is the load to be moved the whole point of a joint lock? You use force on one end of the lever to attempt to move the whole body (I am thinking of a juji gatame or ude garame here) and create a fulcrum on/near the point most likely to fail (the joint). The force needed to move the whole body is greater than the force capacity of the joint at the fulcrum and the joint fails instead of the lever moving the load.

    Maybe the physics of that is incorrect, but it makes sense in my head.

  6. #26
    ChenPengFi's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You don't actually need movement for something to be a "lever"; it's simply a mechanical relationship.
    A perfectly balanced see-saw is still a lever.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krijgsman View Post
    I am no physicist, so someone who is can make fun of me, but isn't the fact that the whole body is the load to be moved the whole point of a joint lock? You use force on one end of the lever to attempt to move the whole body (I am thinking of a juji gatame or ude garame here) and create a fulcrum on/near the point most likely to fail (the joint). The force needed to move the whole body is greater than the force capacity of the joint at the fulcrum and the joint fails instead of the lever moving the load.

    Maybe the physics of that is incorrect, but it makes sense in my head.
    I'm no physical scientist either, but I think you're right here...I mean, as a weird example, if you were using a prosthetic arm by itself (so not attached to a body) to practice some wrist locks, the other end of the arm would just swing through the air...only with the body resisting the movement do you get the lock...at least as I'm picturing it...

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    ...if you were using a prosthetic arm by itself (so not attached to a body) to practice some wrist locks, the other end of the arm would just swing through the air...only with the body resisting the movement do you get the lock...
    How long have you trained this way?

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    How long have you trained this way?
    Only once, and that guy was PISSED!

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    OP does Hapkido, i've seen quite a bit of that in there (and Aikido etc.).
    This one is hand and wrist, but same idea.



    You're also talking about the lever failing, that isn't the same as the description of the force and structures vis a vis levers.
    yea... I was thinking about the standing arm bar like in judo:



    The hapkido throws and such I left out, because to your point, there is too much going on there besides just one lever.

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