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  1. MaartenSFS is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 3:25am


     Style: Sanda, Taijiquan ( Chen)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm still watching. I mean, their Sanda is fine, but I think I have an idea as to why we aren't seeing any Taiji. These young fighters probably trained for forms and Tuishou competitions, leaving a disconnect between the techniques in the forms and actual combat. To fill in the blanks Sanda was added. Sooo disappointed... I feel like Chenjiagou has become very commercialised in the last years. I'm rather glad not to be a part of the current lineage there..
  2. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 6:41am


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon View Post
    That was interesting. The Chen bloke started well and I quite admired his talent. I found it odd that the MT fighter started to make progress and trapped his opponent on the ropes and was starting to apply pressure when the Ref intervened to let the Chen guy off the hook (4 min). Why??

    The MT fighter upped his game and took control and the Chen stylist was getting tired and was slipping away. Conditioning was a clear factor and the MT fighter had it but the Chen bloke didn't.

    Any further and the Chen stylist would likely have been KO'd.

    Quite a good show.
    I have to admit I'm still not sure what was and wasn't allowed with these fights...there were some times when the Ref broke them up in the middle of an exchange for no reason I could see...maybe a technique that wasn't allowed? I was thinking maybe the Thai clinch wasn't allowed, but it was done a few times where the ref seemed fine with it. Knees to the body were sort of mixed...they weren't thrown much, and once I thought I saw the Ref saying something and pointing to his knee, so maybe a warning? At least one of these fights had a decent Thai clinch with a knee to the body that flat out floored the Chen guy...so got like a 12 count, the ref practically helped him up, and they restarted...the technique wasn't used again, despite practically knocking the guy out with it...the ref was counting, though, so it didn't seem like it was a foul...

    Like I said, confusing. I'm not that familiar with San Da rules, though, so maybe it made more sense to some of you more experienced guys?
  3. MaartenSFS is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 8:51am


     Style: Sanda, Taijiquan ( Chen)

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Like I said, confusing. I'm not that familiar with San Da rules, though, so maybe it made more sense to some of you more experienced guys?
    Knees are allowed in Sanda and clinches have a time limit before they are broken up (forgot what it is, though). I don't think these Thai fighters were good examples of the style. Nor were the Taiji fighters, though... =S
  4. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 9:10am


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaartenSFS View Post
    Knees are allowed in Sanda and clinches have a time limit before they are broken up (forgot what it is, though). I don't think these Thai fighters were good examples of the style. Nor were the Taiji fighters, though... =S

    So, from a Taiji perspective the Chen guys weren't very impressive either? Well, this all seems to support Rivington's statement that these are just "minor players"...

    Oh well, at least it was fun to watch...
  5. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 5:48pm

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     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's full of problems and bullshit, but it's better than just wearing silk pajamas and punching the air. Perhaps it'll be a first step toward modernizing the art, though an issue is that the sport can warp the art—see TKD and people hopping around with their arms at their sides in the Olympics.

    First steps: extend the clinch, use MMA gloves.
  6. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 6:01pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaartenSFS View Post
    I can't really explain my point, but I feel like Taiji throws are often more long-distance (from the opponent) and not meant to throw them over your head, but unbalance them. Either way, K1 rules suck for both Taiji and Judo.
    Judo throws unbalance the opponent. Otherwise they are not Judo throws.

    Judo throws are not usually trained to deal with being punched or kicked, so they tend to but do not have to be applied from "grappling" range. Judo competitions deal almost exclusively with throwing attempts when at least one participant has at least one hand on the other.

    So they will look a bit different in application than some sanda throws.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. MaartenSFS is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2013 11:29pm


     Style: Sanda, Taijiquan ( Chen)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    It's full of problems and bullshit, but it's better than just wearing silk pajamas and punching the air. Perhaps it'll be a first step toward modernizing the art, though an issue is that the sport can warp the art—see TKD and people hopping around with their arms at their sides in the Olympics.

    First steps: extend the clinch, use MMA gloves.
    Well put, though even if the art becomes warped will look like Sanda, which at least works. I think extending the clinch would put the Thai fighters at a disadvantage, though. I'd like to see Taiji versus Sanda with your ideas implemented.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Judo throws unbalance the opponent. Otherwise they are not Judo throws.

    Judo throws are not usually trained to deal with being punched or kicked, so they tend to but do not have to be applied from "grappling" range. Judo competitions deal almost exclusively with throwing attempts when at least one participant has at least one hand on the other.

    So they will look a bit different in application than some sanda throws.
    Perhaps Jujutsu would look more similar?
  8. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/01/2013 3:22pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaartenSFS View Post
    Well put, though even if the art becomes warped will look like Sanda, which at least works. I think extending the clinch would put the Thai fighters at a disadvantage, though. I'd like to see Taiji versus Sanda with your ideas implemented.



    Perhaps Jujutsu would look more similar?
    Judo applied under Sanda rules would look very similar to Sanda, lacking the striking and other things illegal under the sanda ruleset (ground grappling?). A well trained judoka with decent cross training in striking would basically be doing Sanda.

    Jujutsu covers a VERY broad range of strategies, techniques, and tactics. So yes and no. The physical aspects of Judo are simply another "style" of "Japanese jujutsu", BTW.

    Basically, Sanda (which I DO like to watch, BTW) and Judo are pretty similar in principle and application, it's the competition ruleset that varies.

    Go onto Youtube and watch some judo shiai (competitions), preferably something like the World championships. Now imagine striking thrown into the mix as part of a hybrid ruleset. So you would have judoka countering strikes with grappling/throwing.

    I did some training in Taekwondo and Okinawan Karate when I was in graduate school. At the time, I was a shodan then nidan in Judo, with extensive competition experience. We did spar full contact in both Taekwondo and the karate, with some pads/body armor. Once I got the whole timing thing down on the striking, I was constantly catching kicks and slipping punches and positioning myself to use throwing as counters, using strikes to set up throws, etc. The karate/taekwondo sensei were constantly yelling at me to not throw anyone, because they could see me working to position myself to do so. Hardwood floors are not nice for big falls, LOL.

    Anyway, not so much difference in the arts/principles, but in the ruleset under which they compete.

    A good boxer would be a nightmare compared to TKD or karate, for the most part.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. MaartenSFS is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2013 7:01pm


     Style: Sanda, Taijiquan ( Chen)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Judo applied under Sanda rules would look very similar to Sanda, lacking the striking and other things illegal under the sanda ruleset (ground grappling?). A well trained judoka with decent cross training in striking would basically be doing Sanda.

    Jujutsu covers a VERY broad range of strategies, techniques, and tactics. So yes and no. The physical aspects of Judo are simply another "style" of "Japanese jujutsu", BTW.

    Basically, Sanda (which I DO like to watch, BTW) and Judo are pretty similar in principle and application, it's the competition ruleset that varies.

    Go onto Youtube and watch some judo shiai (competitions), preferably something like the World championships. Now imagine striking thrown into the mix as part of a hybrid ruleset. So you would have judoka countering strikes with grappling/throwing.

    I did some training in Taekwondo and Okinawan Karate when I was in graduate school. At the time, I was a shodan then nidan in Judo, with extensive competition experience. We did spar full contact in both Taekwondo and the karate, with some pads/body armor. Once I got the whole timing thing down on the striking, I was constantly catching kicks and slipping punches and positioning myself to use throwing as counters, using strikes to set up throws, etc. The karate/taekwondo sensei were constantly yelling at me to not throw anyone, because they could see me working to position myself to do so. Hardwood floors are not nice for big falls, LOL.

    Anyway, not so much difference in the arts/principles, but in the ruleset under which they compete.

    A good boxer would be a nightmare compared to TKD or karate, for the most part.
    I agree with pretty much all of that, but would add that Sanda has less limitations on what throws can be used and has had more time to "perfect" the transition area (like kick-catching take-downs). This is offset by the shorter clinching time and the fact that Judo has a lot more serious competitors out there. As to the boxing, I think everybody realised this and so Muay Thai, Sanda, kickboxing, et cetera all look "similar".
    Last edited by MaartenSFS; 10/01/2013 7:06pm at .
  10. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/02/2013 12:23pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    So, from a Taiji perspective the Chen guys weren't very impressive either?
    If one expects something from Wu Xia, then this wasn't a very impressive performance. In the real world, these Chen players are without a doubt better fighters than you'll find in almost any taiji school.

    As for "not seeing any taiji", while there are structure manipulations and elbow techniques in the Chen syllabus that work in self-defense situations but don't really show up in this context, what I saw was almost entirely taijiquan with a sprinkling of san da (e.g. high kicks). For comparison, here's Howie Ayron -- one of [Shouyu Liang] http://www.shouyuliang.com/ best students -- making his MMA debut:


    (action at 2:26, note how similar the standup phase is)

    Here's a video where Mr Ayron discusses the approach to tuishou at his school in Vancouver:

    Last edited by It is Fake; 10/02/2013 9:37pm at .
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
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